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Author Topic:   Creation
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 406 of 1482 (827218)
01-20-2018 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by ICANT
01-19-2018 7:38 PM


Re: evolution
Where did you get your information from?
The word βιβλίον is the word used in Revelation 1:11.
Same place as you got your information about βιβλίον, I'd wager.
Revelation 6:14 - KJV
quote:
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
quote:
καὶ οὐρανὸς ἀπεχωρίσθη ὡς βιβλίον εἱλισσόμενον καὶ πᾶν ὄρος καὶ νῆσος ἐκ τῶν τόπων αὐτῶν ἐκινήθησαν
'Scroll', βιβλίον is the noun. The verb is 'rolled together', εἱλίσσω. A variant of this verb, ἑλίσσω, is used in Hebrews 1:12
quote:
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up....
εἱλισσόμενον is εἱλισσό and μενον
The word εἱλίσσω that you used would be translated sweat in English.
Erm, no - that would be ἱδρώς surely? Find me a translation of Rev 6:14 that reads
quote:
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it sweats; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2018 7:38 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2018 3:15 PM Modulous has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 407 of 1482 (827227)
01-20-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Modulous
01-20-2018 9:31 AM


Re: evolution
Hi Mod,
Mod writes:
Where did you get your information from?
The word βιβλίον is the word used in Revelation 1:11.
Same place as you got your information about βιβλίον, I'd wager.
I don't know what your wager was but you lost. I use a scholars program for Greek and Hebrew. One that is used in making translations of the original texts we have.
And yes I check Blue letter Bible as a quick reference.
εἱλίσσω means sweat.
είλισσόμενον means melting.
ίδρώς means perspiration.
μενον means me.
Mod writes:
Find me a translation of Rev 6:14 that reads
quote:
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it sweats; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
If I could find you one it would be a false translation.
There is no Greek text that has εἱλίσσω in it. Revelation 6:14.
You even quoted Revelation 6:14 from the Greek TR text and it does not have εἱλίσσω in it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2018 9:31 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2018 4:31 PM ICANT has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 408 of 1482 (827230)
01-20-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by ICANT
01-20-2018 3:15 PM


Re: evolution
εἱλίσσω means sweat.
Any evidence for this whatsoever?
Strong's says: heiliss: roll together.
quote:
είλισσόμενον means melting.
According to whom? Everywhere I look I see είλισσόμενον as a form of εἱλίσσω eg:
quote:
Forms and Transliterations
ελισσόμενον
Thayer's Greek: 1507. (heiliss) -- roll together.
Your translation, unlike all the translators of the Bible would have Revelation 6:14 read
quote:
And the heaven departed as a melting scroll
Scrolls don't melt. It would make the simile nonsensical.
μενον means me.
I think you are using your program wrong, or you need a new program.
- - Wiktionary
You even quoted Revelation 6:14 from the Greek TR text and it does not have εἱλίσσω in it.
Strong's says it contains a form of εἱλίσσω. Every translation out there translates it to mean a form of the verb εἱλίσσω 'to roll up' in a tense that should be translated somewhere along the lines of 'when it is rolled'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2018 3:15 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 6:09 PM Modulous has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 409 of 1482 (827233)
01-21-2018 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by ringo
08-22-2017 11:51 AM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
The Bible does suggest the heaven and the earth were created before anything in the earth was created. And it happened before the 6 days of creation.
ringo writes:
Does it really suggest that or do you just wish it did? If you were reading Genesis 1 with no preconceived notions, would you conclude that there were billions of years?
quote:
1 In the beginning, God created the (1)heavens and the (2)earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. -ESV
IF you read the passage in order, the (1)heavens (space) and the (2)earth (material) were created by God and then God created everything in the earth that we know and understand. There are inferences you can draw out of the passage but they would only become apparent with a further understanding of reality (no pun intended). The author didn't have to understand the universe as we do today in order to get the order correct as we understand it within the scientific realm of thinking (i.e. space first then material). FYI: I am not claiming to know what the author is aware of regarding his understanding of the universe or multiverse, etc.
DOCJ writes:
Gen 1:2 is a new sentence beginning from on the earth. Genesis 1:1 is looking down at the heavens and the earth.
ringo writes:
Well of course Genesis 1:1 is looking down on the earth; there was nowhere to stand on earth yet. How can you stretch a different viewpoint to billions of years?
I think how you interpret the passage does depend on who is reading it. In order to avoid pointless conversation I will not use any example.
DOCJ writes:
2, the expansion is evidence of an outside region for it expand into it.
ringo writes:
No, the Big Bang didn't expand "into" anything. It was an expansion OF everything.
I was referencing a point that the big bang hypothesis would need to explain a larger outside space to exist for it to expand. In any other case it would not explain itself because something expanding does need a place to expand. However, where that place came from could not be explained within the realm of Science. You will continually have the issue of needing an explanation to further explain the issue of where the space came from initially.
DOCJ writes:
If the bible were wrong I wouldn't expect congruency between the evidence and scripture.
ringo writes:
That's like saying that Ian Fleming mentioned Paris and Paris exists so the James Bond stories must be true. Even if there are some congruencies, it's the incongruencies that determine whether or not the Bible is reliable.
The issue you speak of is created by the interpreter. In my point of view using Science, whether popular or not, is not always the solution. In some situations, and I'm sure you will find this wrong in this context, you determine the conclusion by trial, being the judge and the jury. You can't specifically reproduce some of these issues in a lab.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by ringo, posted 08-22-2017 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by ringo, posted 01-26-2018 11:53 AM DOCJ has not replied
 Message 429 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 8:26 PM DOCJ has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 410 of 1482 (827234)
01-21-2018 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by ringo
08-21-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Giving This Topic Another Opportunity
ringo writes:
That isn't what it says. There is no "prior to" time frame mentioned between verse 1 and verse 2.
IF you read the passage in order and if space were to be created time would have been ticking regardless of if the author realized it.
ringo writes:
I agree that it's a revolution of Biblical revisionism that came up with your interpretation. It wasn't Bible scholars who discovered that the earth was billions of years old. Bible revisionists have been struggling to shoehorn the Bible into reality ever since science was invented.
I will make the same point above. The author didn't have to be aware of the Science in order to author the correct sequence of events. What you don't seem to be understanding is that, and I'm being objective in this context, if the author was picked by God to author the passage then God would know what was going to be written and that is all that is required for it to be the truth. And further God would also know the people who would be reading it and how they would be interpreting it from generation to generation. If you are being objective you will have to accept this point. There is absolutely no way around it.
ringo writes:
So which is it? Are you looking for possibilities within scripture or are you looking for the truth?
If God knew what would be authored, that is all that is required for it to be the truth....
I think the issue here is that what you preconceive being the inspiration of God. I will help you out a bit, probably a waste of my time. However, God, if it be GOD, is omniscient and the author was an ancient human. FYI: I am not suggesting the author didn't know the Science, I am just allowing for an objective reason of thought. IF you are going to argue God is just imaginary then you are not being objective.
ringo writes:
Huh? Are you disputing the length of time from Abraham to Jesus? Are you inserting untold generations in there? Remember that Abraham was from Ur and we can date Ur independently of the Bible.
The biggest problem in Biblical dating of the earth is that the gap before humans is way too small. You can't insert generations there.
I was making another point regarding the generations of mankind in scripture. The reason we have generations in scripture is to link to the savior. IT was NEVER, at least it is not scriptural in my opinion, that the generations were used to provide every person that lived from Adam to Jesus, or an age of things (refer to a concordance on "begat" and "son" rooted in the Hebrew. Defined as: x begat a lineage that lead to y). And there is not a single jot in scripture that limits mankind to being less than hundreds of thousands of years old. Further if you study the order of creation it is correct all the way to when mankind came on the seen from a Scientific perspective. Of course this is presuming that dating methods provide accurate information which is under dispute. I do realize within the conventional world of Science they think they are gods but if they are being reasonable and objective there are alternative "theories" to a gravitational based universe. I prefer an electric universe that is described using the Birkeland current.
ringo writes:
Indeed. That includes your interpretation. That's why we need to look at what it actually says instead of trying to rewrite it to conform to the science of the day.
I presume according to you, that we should JUST listen to your side because you know what God is thinking, eh? I mean if it be God is real, somehow you just seem to know the truth regarding God. It's your version of reality because you say it.
Edited by DOCJ, :
Edited by DOCJ, : 😊😊😊😃😃😁

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 08-21-2017 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by ringo, posted 01-26-2018 12:03 PM DOCJ has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 411 of 1482 (827246)
01-21-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by ICANT
01-19-2018 12:21 PM


Re: Creation
icant writes:
Since you say the Bible says the heavens and the earth will fold up like a scroll, could you please supply book, chapter, and verse where I can find that?
I can't find where the Bible says it will pass away suddenly, nor fold up like a scroll,.
" 14. departed--Greek, "was separated from" its place; "was made to depart." Not as ALFORD, "parted asunder"; for, on the contrary, it was rolled together as a scroll which had been open is rolled up and laid aside. There is no "asunder one from another" here in the Greek, as in Ac 15:39, which ALFORD copies. "
Welcome to the Future - StudyLight.org
Rev 6:14 -And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
I can find where it will melt with fervent heat:
quote:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
I do not see the sun in there anywhere. You seem to be trying to adjust it to what you think science demands. I do see that the sun will go out...dark in the very end. Cities will need to use candles. Well, since every tower on earth will shake to the ground, maybe using the word city is a stretch, but you get the drift.
Some scientist believe the universe has melted many times in the past and had a new beginning to exist out of the melted blob of energy. They would use different words to express what I said, which is OK.
Beliefs. They might as well say they believe a turtle had a bowel movement and out popped the universe.
Yes they will melt as they are part of the heavens.
Where are you going to be standing when they melt?
You mentioned you thought the sun did the melting. That won't work for the stars!
The heat thing probably refers to the earth area anyhow. We do see God sends fire from heaven to melt the surface of the earth and cleanse it after the 1000 years reign. Probably that is when Peter is talking about...not constellations 'melting'!
The stars and everything in the heavens was created on day one which is found in Genesis 1:1-5.
Actually stars are not even mentioned till several verses later. You infer that because you want to get billions of years in by verse one for no apparent reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2018 12:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 01-21-2018 2:06 PM creation has replied
 Message 430 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 10:56 PM creation has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 412 of 1482 (827247)
01-21-2018 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by creation
01-21-2018 2:04 PM


Re: Creation
I do see that the sun will go out...dark in the very end. Cities will need to use candles.
If the Sun "goes out" there will be nothing left alive to light the candles.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:04 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 413 of 1482 (827263)
01-21-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Phat
01-21-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Creation
If the Sun "goes out" there will be nothing left alive to light the candles.
Yet there will be. That tells me science doesn't really know how the sun works...or will work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 01-21-2018 2:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2018 3:29 PM creation has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 414 of 1482 (827267)
01-21-2018 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by creation
01-21-2018 2:49 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:
Yet there will be. That tells me science doesn't really know how the sun works...or will work.
You must be some kind of undiscovered genius - do you work as a clerk in a patent office by any chance?
Anyhoo, let's see your workings. Out with it, this is your second Nobel Prize chance.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:49 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 415 of 1482 (827298)
01-22-2018 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Tangle
01-21-2018 3:29 PM


Re: Creation
tangle writes:
...
It is elementary that if the bible is true, that the sun does or will not work the way science has conceived.
The test will come. Better have some candles ready I guess. The stars, when they fall, and go out will be at the same time, so we can't blame the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2018 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2018 9:55 AM creation has replied
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 01-26-2018 11:31 AM creation has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 416 of 1482 (827300)
01-22-2018 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by creation
01-22-2018 9:50 AM


Re: Creation
creation writes:
It is elementary that if the bible is true, that the sun does or will not work the way science has conceived.
The test will come. Better have some candles ready I guess. The stars, when they fall, and go out will be at the same time, so we can't blame the sun.
Then we don't have much time, quick, show up the maths.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:50 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:59 AM Tangle has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 417 of 1482 (827483)
01-26-2018 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Tangle
01-22-2018 9:55 AM


Re: Creation
tangle writes:
...
?=u

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2018 9:55 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 418 of 1482 (827496)
01-26-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by creation
01-22-2018 9:50 AM


Re: Creation
creation writes:
It is elementary that if the bible is true....
The Bible is not true. We know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:50 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 2:02 PM ringo has replied
 Message 431 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 11:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 419 of 1482 (827497)
01-26-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by DOCJ
01-21-2018 4:33 AM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
IF you read the passage in order, the (1)heavens (space) and the (2)earth (material) were created by God and then God created everything in the earth that we know and understand.
There is no distinction between "space" and "material" in Genesis 1. Did the Hebrews even have a concept of "space"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by DOCJ, posted 01-21-2018 4:33 AM DOCJ has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 2:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 432 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 11:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 420 of 1482 (827498)
01-26-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by DOCJ
01-21-2018 5:02 AM


Re: Giving This Topic Another Opportunity
DOCJ writes:
The author didn't have to be aware of the Science in order to author the correct sequence of events.
Sure, it's possible for an author of fiction to make up something that coincidentally agrees with reality.
DOCJ writes:
What you don't seem to be understanding is that, and I'm being objective in this context, if the author was picked by God to author the passage then God would know what was going to be written and that is all that is required for it to be the truth.
There's nothing objective about the concept of "God", so your point is moot.
DOCJ writes:
If God knew what would be authored, that is all that is required for it to be the truth....
What if God knew that He was dictating fiction?
DOCJ writes:
I presume according to you, that we should JUST listen to your side because you know what God is thinking, eh?
On the contrary, I'm saying that we should just read the text as it is written. You're the one who's trying to shoehorn "truth" into it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by DOCJ, posted 01-21-2018 5:02 AM DOCJ has not replied

  
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