quote:
And the article you quote of Scanisoriopteryx indicates more problems for you:The dating is uncertain even for Epidendrosaurus (which may be the same species or a very close relative)
quote:
The holotype skeleton of Epidendrosaurus was recovered from the Daohugou fossil beds of northeastern China. In the past, there has been some uncertainty regarding the age of these beds. Various papers have placed the fossils here anywhere from the Middle Jurassic period (169 million years ago) to the Early Cretaceous period (122 ma).[10]
But even worse for Scanisoriopteryx
The provenance of the Scansoriopteryx type specimen is uncertain, as it was obtained from private fossil dealers who did not record exact geologic data.
The man who named it is dead.
First, the man who named the variant is dead.
http://dinosaur-museum.org/stephenczerkasmemorial.htm
quote:
Dinosaur Museum Journal[edit]In 2002 the Czerkases published a volume through their Dinosaur Museum titled Feathered Dinosaurs and the Origin of Flight. In this journal they described and named several species.[16] Of the six species named in the book, five are disputed.
Despite the work of Zhou et al. (2002), Czerkas and co-author Xu Xing described the upper portion of the "Archaeoraptor" fossil as a new bird genus, Archaeovolans, in the Dinosaur Museum Journal. The article does include the caveat that it might actually be a specimen of Yanornis.[17] Thus, this same fossil specimen has been named "Archaeoraptor", Archeovolans, and Yanornis, in different places.
Across the monographs in the Dinosaur Museum Journal, Stephen Czerkas built a case for his controversial view that maniraptoran dinosaurs are secondarily flightless birds. In so doing, he criticized prominent paleontologists. In the text on Cryptovolans, Czerkas accused Dr. Mark Norell of misinterpreting the fossil BPM 1 3-13 as having long leg feathers due to the "blinding influences of preconceived ideas."[17] In fact, though, Norell's interpretation was correct, and Czerkas added leg feathers to his own reconstruction of the fossil in the art that promotes the traveling exhibit.[18]
Two other taxa that Czerkas and his co-authors named were later treated as junior synonyms by other authors. Czerkas' Cryptovolans was treated as Microraptor,[19] and his Scansoriopteryx was treated as Epidendrosaurus.[19][20] Czerkas described Omnivoropteryx, noting that it was similar to Sapeornis. Later specimens of Sapeornis with skulls demonstrated that the two were probably synonymous.[21]
Another taxon that Czerkas assigned to the pterosauria and named Utahdactylus was reviewed by Dr. Chris Bennett. Bennett found multiple misidentifications of bones and inconsistencies between Czerkas' diagrams and the actual fossils. Bennett found the specimen to be an indeterminate diapsid and criticized the previous authors for publishing a species name when no diagnostic characters below the class level could be verified. He made Utahdactylus a nomen dubium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoraptor
Secondly, it seems that ALL feathered dinosaurs (aside from Archaeopteryx) date from the same period as they are from the same Chinese formation. They are from the Barrremian stage of the Early Cretaceous? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Archaeopteryx is STILL the "oldest" after all of this?
And even the feathers are controversial.
http://bio.unc.edu/...2011/04/Journal-of-Morphology-2005.pdf
quote:
You’re wrong about the wrist joint and the breast bone is more likely parallel evolution - it’s the simpler change of the two.And I’ll point out that Feduccia’s arguments have been largely discredited, and only the more extreme “alternative interpretations” help you - and they lack evidence.
The issue is older lines than theropods having these features (though they might fully develop after the 230 million year beginning of dinosaurs).
I didn't exactly mean to include the wrist issue in with the breastbone.
The theory is about how distal carpal becomes the semilunate carpal, which allows a swivel in the wrist joint. It is related to maniraptorans and birds.
But there are strange disappearances and reappearances.
And the pterosaur issue is relevant.
http://pterosaurnet.blogspot.com/...4/semilunate-carpal.html
p. 154 of this recent Feducia book, about our specimen (Scansoriopteryx) in question "there is an avian like semilunate carpal".
Mark Witton said that wrists in pterosaurs "bore a sliding joint permitting at least 30 degrees of rotation between them" in his book.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=SihlpQTlVdAC&pg=PA150&lp...(as%20opposed%20to%20a%20theropod)&source=bl&ots=jTl0Vyg1bh&sig=0pKrv2ph457hUDTn1c3T4-yEBC0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WyYTVP6qCcSryATTxYCwDQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=pelvis%20is%20still%2 0like%20that%20of%20a%20reptile%20(as%20opposed%20to%20a%20theropod)%20&f=false
quote:
p.149-150IN 2002, STILL ANOTHER INTERESTING DISCOVERY WAS REPORTED IN SEVERAL JOURNALS INDEPENDENTLY. a DIMINUTIVE AND PECULIAR ARCHOSAUR, EPIDENDROSAURUS ("upon tree lizard"), was described by Fucheng Zhang and colleagues as a maniraptoran dinosaur, the group containing dromaeosaurs, oviraptorosaurs, and troodontids ( and perhaps therizinosaurs and alvarezsaurids), although it apparently lacks any salient theropod synapomorphies. 142 Though not well preserved, Epidendrosaurus possessed feathers that resemble those of the dromaeosaurid Microraptor, lacked the fully perforated acetabulum characteristic of theropods, and had a strange elongate outer finger, which is longest of the manus (in theropods the middle is the longest) and analogously resembles the digger finger of the tiny Malagasy primate aye-aye (Daubentonia madagascariensis), which uses it elongated tool for probing in tree crevices. To date, a number of specimens have been described, and important questions are raised by this enegmaic group, not the least of which are just what they are and which groups they are most closely allied with. Overlooking the obvious specialization of the elongate outer finger, it is difficult to justify classifying ythis small ancestral archosaur as a theropod. Are they simply basal birds or even basal archosaurs? Why are they even called theropods? Stephen Czerkas of the Dinosaur Museum in Blanding, Utah, and his Chinese colleague Chongxi Yuan independently described another specimen of the small Epidendrosaurus in 2002 and named it Scansoriopteryx (climbing wing"). There was some confusion concerning priority because of the near simultaneous descriptions of different specimens, but Scansoriopteryx is generally accepted as a junior synonym of Epidendrosaurus, although the family name is derived from the designation by Czerkas and Yuan (hence Scansoriopterygidae, "climbing wings"). 144
Here are 5 (of 13) Features that predate theropods, and read on to see about 6 avian features.
quote:
p.154
Outer digdit of manus longer than other digits (in all theropods the middle digit is the longest) Outer metacarpal straight, more robust, and longer than the mid-metacarpal
Phalanges of outer manus digit becomes a progressively shorter distally (as in basal archosaurs)
Acetabulum shallow and largely closed (fully opened in theropods and dinosaurs in general)
Supro-acetabular crest absent or with only incipient development as a low rim
Put this into search engines
www.bing.com
www.google.com
scansoriopteryx feduccia
His theories are current and he published a 2014 journal article on the issue.
NOT REFUTED AT ALL!
And he is not the only one who reached the pre theropod view btw.
It seems to have come largely from others.
quote:
Dinosaur Museum Journal[edit]In 2002 the Czerkases published a volume through their Dinosaur Museum titled Feathered Dinosaurs and the Origin of Flight. In this journal they described and named several species.[16] Of the six species named in the book, five are disputed.
Despite the work of Zhou et al. (2002), Czerkas and co-author Xu Xing described the upper portion of the "Archaeoraptor" fossil as a new bird genus, Archaeovolans, in the Dinosaur Museum Journal. The article does include the caveat that it might actually be a specimen of Yanornis.[17] Thus, this same fossil specimen has been named "Archaeoraptor", Archeovolans, and Yanornis, in different places.
Across the monographs in the Dinosaur Museum Journal, Stephen Czerkas built a case for his controversial view that maniraptoran dinosaurs are secondarily flightless birds. In so doing, he criticized prominent paleontologists. In the text on Cryptovolans, Czerkas accused Dr. Mark Norell of misinterpreting the fossil BPM 1 3-13 as having long leg feathers due to the "blinding influences of preconceived ideas."[17] In fact, though, Norell's interpretation was correct, and Czerkas added leg feathers to his own reconstruction of the fossil in the art that promotes the traveling exhibit.[18]
Two other taxa that Czerkas and his co-authors named were later treated as junior synonyms by other authors. Czerkas' Cryptovolans was treated as Microraptor,[19] and his Scansoriopteryx was treated as Epidendrosaurus.[19][20] Czerkas described Omnivoropteryx, noting that it was similar to Sapeornis. Later specimens of Sapeornis with skulls demonstrated that the two were probably synonymous.[21]
Another taxon that Czerkas assigned to the pterosauria and named Utahdactylus was reviewed by Dr. Chris Bennett. Bennett found multiple misidentifications of bones and inconsistencies between Czerkas' diagrams and the actual fossils. Bennett found the specimen to be an indeterminate diapsid and criticized the previous authors for publishing a species name when no diagnostic characters below the class level could be verified. He made Utahdactylus a nomen dubium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoraptor
Secondly, it seems that ALL feathered dinosaurs (aside from Archaeopteryx) date from the same period as they are from the same Chinese formation. They are from the Barrremian stage of the Early Cretaceous? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Archaeopteryx is STILL the "oldest" after all of this?
And even the feathers are controversial.
http://bio.unc.edu/...2011/04/Journal-of-Morphology-2005.pdf
quote:
You’re wrong about the wrist joint and the breast bone is more likely parallel evolution - it’s the simpler change of the two.And I’ll point out that Feduccia’s arguments have been largely discredited, and only the more extreme “alternative interpretations” help you - and they lack evidence.
The issue is older lines than theropods having these features (though they might fully develop after the 230 million year beginning of dinosaurs).
I didn't exactly mean to include the wrist issue in with the breastbone.
The theory is about how distal carpal becomes the semilunate carpal, which allows a swivel in the wrist joint. It is related to maniraptorans and birds.
But there are strange disappearances and reappearances.
And the pterosaur issue is relevant.
http://pterosaurnet.blogspot.com/...4/semilunate-carpal.html
p. 154 of this recent Feducia book, about our specimen (Scansoriopteryx) in question "there is an avian like semilunate carpal".
Mark Witton said that wrists in pterosaurs "bore a sliding joint permitting at least 30 degrees of rotation between them" in his book.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=SihlpQTlVdAC&pg=PA150&lp...(as%20opposed%20to%20a%20theropod)&source=bl&ots=jTl0Vyg1bh&sig=0pKrv2ph457hUDTn1c3T4-yEBC0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WyYTVP6qCcSryATTxYCwDQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=pelvis%20is%20still%2 0like%20that%20of%20a%20reptile%20(as%20opposed%20to%20a%20theropod)%20&f=false
quote:
p.149-150IN 2002, STILL ANOTHER INTERESTING DISCOVERY WAS REPORTED IN SEVERAL JOURNALS INDEPENDENTLY. a DIMINUTIVE AND PECULIAR ARCHOSAUR, EPIDENDROSAURUS ("upon tree lizard"), was described by Fucheng Zhang and colleagues as a maniraptoran dinosaur, the group containing dromaeosaurs, oviraptorosaurs, and troodontids ( and perhaps therizinosaurs and alvarezsaurids), although it apparently lacks any salient theropod synapomorphies. 142 Though not well preserved, Epidendrosaurus possessed feathers that resemble those of the dromaeosaurid Microraptor, lacked the fully perforated acetabulum characteristic of theropods, and had a strange elongate outer finger, which is longest of the manus (in theropods the middle is the longest) and analogously resembles the digger finger of the tiny Malagasy primate aye-aye (Daubentonia madagascariensis), which uses it elongated tool for probing in tree crevices. To date, a number of specimens have been described, and important questions are raised by this enegmaic group, not the least of which are just what they are and which groups they are most closely allied with. Overlooking the obvious specialization of the elongate outer finger, it is difficult to justify classifying ythis small ancestral archosaur as a theropod. Are they simply basal birds or even basal archosaurs? Why are they even called theropods? Stephen Czerkas of the Dinosaur Museum in Blanding, Utah, and his Chinese colleague Chongxi Yuan independently described another specimen of the small Epidendrosaurus in 2002 and named it Scansoriopteryx (climbing wing"). There was some confusion concerning priority because of the near simultaneous descriptions of different specimens, but Scansoriopteryx is generally accepted as a junior synonym of Epidendrosaurus, although the family name is derived from the designation by Czerkas and Yuan (hence Scansoriopterygidae, "climbing wings"). 144
Here are 5 (of 13) Features that predate theropods, and read on to see about 6 avian features.
quote:
p.154
Outer digdit of manus longer than other digits (in all theropods the middle digit is the longest) Outer metacarpal straight, more robust, and longer than the mid-metacarpal
Phalanges of outer manus digit becomes a progressively shorter distally (as in basal archosaurs)
Acetabulum shallow and largely closed (fully opened in theropods and dinosaurs in general)
Supro-acetabular crest absent or with only incipient development as a low rim
Put this into search engines
www.bing.com
www.google.com
scansoriopteryx feduccia
His theories are current and he published a 2014 journal article on the issue.
NOT REFUTED AT ALL!
And he is not the only one who reached the pre theropod view btw.
It seems to have come largely from others.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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