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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 440 of 591 (812947)
06-21-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by Phat
06-21-2017 1:27 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
Either He reaches out to all, or jar is right and GOD is unconcerned with our relationship.
Or he's arbitrary.
Thus I believe that GOD reaches out to all...but in differing ways.
Then he's discriminatory.
For someone such as myself who seems to need and value the communion, God is there for me.
He has a weird way of showing it. He gave you all sorts of obsessions and a difficult life but now he's letting you lean on his shoulder and he's patting your head. You've been had Phat.
Thus...through agreement with such an unction, someone such as yourself may well be relating to GOD simply by doing for others and not being all sanctimonious and religious about it.
Wow. Atheists are relating to god. Aolologists can say almost anything and make it make sense to themselves.
I can agree that GOD is unconcerned how we relate to Him...yet is concerned with how we relate to others.
You can't know that.
And perhaps GOD reaches out to me by sending me online relationships with people such as yourself. Who knows?
See above. You can make anything work so long as it's all mysterious.
But you've still not answered my questions - he reaches out to some but not others - therefore he's unjust; when he reaches out he removes free will by interfering - therefore he's creating worshipful puppets.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 1:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:12 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 451 of 591 (813033)
06-22-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
06-22-2017 10:12 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
You and ringo seem to prefer that IF GOD exists that He simply leave you alone.
The mind of a believer is a puzzle to me.....
I don't prefer anything, I'm an atheist - god doesn't exist. My questions were an attempt to show you that there's no logic in what you say. God can't reach out to individual people, if he did he'd be unjust, discriminatory and be depriving people of their free will.
jar points out that (the Bible supports the idea that)God expects personal responsibility from us.. and that WE should expect it of ourselves, whether we believe in God or not.
I have no interest in what the bible says, but it's hardly worth saying that we are responsible for ourselves. How could it be otherwise?
Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.
Cobblers.
Now you could argue that GOD is arbitrary and thus you are not buying the Kool-Aid I'm selling. So why not make your own Kool-Aid and drink up?
God doesn't exist, Phat - you can, and do, argue anything you like but you'll never get anywhere with it. No one ever has, have they?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 10:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:04 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 454 of 591 (813040)
06-22-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Phat
06-22-2017 11:04 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
OK, good start. You have created a God Who can't reach out to individual people without violating their free will. Am I correct?
And discriminating against those he doesn't reach out to.
If the ultimate purpose of this god is to get people into his heaven, and if heaven is the place we're all supposed to want to go to, and if the other place is everlasting fire, then he's giving some a free pass and condemning others - like me - to hell.
If so, how is God supposed to get their attention so as to allow them to suspend their disbelief long enough for it to not count as a violation?? (keep in mind we are obviously talking hypothetical)
He can't. That's my point. Ergo he's either non-existant or unjust. I pick non-existant.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Phat, posted 06-22-2017 11:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 473 of 591 (814353)
07-07-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
07-07-2017 11:47 AM


Re: repeating old material
Phat writes:
Not totally. I rarely attend church lately.
Totally. Your religion is Christianity, you pray to a Christian god.
The God I believe in does not require worship. He desires relationship through prayer...largely for our benefit rather than His. No belief system is condemned, but He desires to draw all men unto Himself.
This is the trouble arguing with you believers - you all believe something different even within the same belief. It's almost as if you're cherry picking what suits you.....
I focus on the present. I do not merely parrot belief like a sheeple
You're telling me that you don't believe in heaven and hell?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 11:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 7:29 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 486 of 591 (824012)
11-21-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Phat
11-21-2017 6:48 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:
Is the difference between believers and non-believers simply a matter of choice? Past experiences?
You're trying to make this far, far more complicated than it is.
The majority of atheists of my age grew up in Christian communities where church and religion was as natural a part of our young lives as Sunday lunch and Father Christmas.
But I became an atheist in exactly the same way that I stopped believing in Father Christmas - it just grew naturally and obviously. It all just became absurd. It wasn't just that there was no evidence, it was that it is was so utterly absurd. Of course as soon as you see that the emperor has no clothes you can't stop laughing at him and you wonder not just why you were fooled for so long but why so many grown ups continue to be fooled.
After that initial falling away of belief which combines with an increasing acknowedgement of the faith's total absurdities - it's rituals, traditions, costumery, preposterous theatre and so on; the bells and smells - there is a lifelong build up of hard evidence against.
Religion simply doesn't stand a chance against real knowledge. It's inevitable that it will decline in its current form and you can see this happened very rapidly both in simple numbers and in the changes of beliefs inside the religions themselves to make them acceptable to modern life.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 6:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 495 of 591 (824361)
11-27-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by Phat
11-27-2017 8:19 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:
I assumed that belief was a choice, but now that you put it that way....
It can't be a choice can it? The vast majority are simply born into it and learn belief like they learn to speak.
If the 'truth' is 'revealed', then it's not a choice either - it's an imposition.
With Father Christmas, kids are taught about him and given evidence of his existence every year, they live in a culture where he's real. At some point doubts will set in as they begin to work it out and for a while kids probably know he's a fake but prefer to carry on believing, finally the whole thing is swept away by real knowledge.
You can't not believe in FC as a child and you can't believe as an adult. The only point where choice MAY come into it is during the process of beginning to disbelie, but it's an unconcious process so choice is really the wrong word. It's developmental.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 11-27-2017 8:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 506 of 591 (824487)
11-29-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Phat
11-29-2017 2:25 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:
It could not be the cause of itself.
3. It could not come from nothing.
4. It could not be an effect in an infinite series of causes and effects
Why do you put so much weight on opinions that are thousands of years old? These are just ideas, based on nothing but thoughts. Thoughts that can't have been informed by any real knowledge of how our universe actually works.
On the other hand we have people like Prof Hawkings who tell us that the energy in the universe cancels out to zero, so if there is zero energy in total a God is not necessary to create it. Something can come from nothing.
Now you've been informed that science, based on some mind destroying maths, thinks that it's possible that the universe can arrive from nothing many times before but you religiously ignore it and yet again fall back to this ancient and bad philosophy.
I'm struggling to understand how you can simultaeously over-emphasise some old and poor thinking and seemigly totally ignore a modern evidence based view. I'm not saying Hawking is right - I mean how the hell would I know? - but surely you can't just ignore it? Or do you just forget?
Curiously, RAZD would mention cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias at this point.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 2:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 3:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 508 of 591 (824510)
11-29-2017 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by Phat
11-29-2017 3:51 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:
I have traditionally defended my belief as an internal certainty but can let go of that certainty as long as nobody attempts to snatch the probability.
That's ok then as no-one here will tell you that the probability of there being no god is zero. Because - and how many times have you heard this too? - no-one can prove a negative. So it will always and forever remain a possibility.
So you can keep your (infinitely small) probability and being a gambler that should be good enough for you. But it does allow you to consider alternatives.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 11:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 514 of 591 (824753)
12-03-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by Phat
12-03-2017 11:18 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:
Im still trying to figure out how logical people have concluded that the probability of a Creator of all seen and unseen is small.
Because we have exactly no evidence for this being - none. Why would anyone believe in something without a shred of evidence?How does that contain any logic?
Just because Hawking thinks the universe could spontaneously create itself out of nothing does not convince me.
But nothing would convince you Phat. You just believe.
Hawking just provides further evidence that a god is not necessary

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 11:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 11:52 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 563 of 591 (827812)
02-01-2018 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by Phat
02-01-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:
I have no need to believe in Zeus. He has nothing useful to offer me.
Can you accept that the reason you believe in Jesus and not Mohamed is because you were born into a society where Jesus was the dominant belief persona?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Phat, posted 02-01-2018 4:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 02-02-2018 4:06 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 565 of 591 (827823)
02-02-2018 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Phat
02-02-2018 4:06 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:
Yes I can accept that premise. Logically, it makes sense.
And if you were born in Mumbai you would believe in Hinduism and if in Japan, Shinto or Buddism dependent on you parents.
You have to accept also that had you been born in Stockholm the high probability is that you'd be an atheist.
I don't think many people believe or don't believe out of choice, I think they learn belief from the societies they are born in. A small proportion then either change their beliefs or lose them depending on their personalities and culture that surrounds them.
If you live in a society that is isolated from others and does not allow dissent, beliefs wiil continue; the more open and liberal the society the less those beliefs survive and propogate.
All this just means that your beliefs can not be The Truth, or if it is, it's by pure chance.
Personally, if I was a believer I'd find this fact very destructive. That and the problem of suffering would be a clincher.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 02-02-2018 4:06 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 9:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 567 of 591 (827834)
02-02-2018 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 566 by Stile
02-02-2018 9:51 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Stile writes:
Those are definitely two of the biggies that ended religion's usefulness with me.
The third of course being that science has rendered the bible stories to myth and metaphor.
There's reaaly nothing left bar pomp, circumstance and tradition.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 9:51 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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