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Author | Topic: Evangelical Support Group | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
First of all, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it can and does not happen. I realize your position on the issue, however.
In What Is Christianity you claim that GOD IS. You claim that Jesus died for everyone, including atheists. Thus unlike most of the chapters in Christianity, you dislike the idea of a GOD who "picks" who shall be saved based on certain criteria. (Such as having communion with only some of the people. ) Based on your own belief and your choice to reject much of the Gospel of John as inspirational, there really isn't a way to explain anything to you in regards to Spiritual versus Natural. The point of contention between us seems to be your general disdain for Evangelical Christianity as practiced and believed in much of America and the world today. You claim that GOD likely doesnt care whether or not we even believe in "Her". You also claim that in order for anything to make sense about GOD, Jesus while among us was only human. It seems that to you, Christianity is nothing more than a willful human practice and that there is no mystery, no woo factor and no spiritual dynamic that only some of the people understand. Here is where we agree. GOD IS. Where we disagree is the nature of such a Being.
WHY BELIEVE? By Stephen Evans writes: In summation, my idea and belief about Christianity is about a knowable God who desires to commune with humanity, whereas your idea is about humanity only needing a basic charge and responsibility to do unto others...while God is unknowable and largely unimportant in daily life.
In short, the God of Christianity is highly individualized.(...) Such a God is highly embarrassing and irritating to many, precisely because He is so very personal. It is all well and good to believe in a God who is thought of in vague terms as "a moral force" or "the power of being." Such a God will probably not interfere too much with my basic plans and values.Will you finally after being asked for over a decade tell us how someone can know they are in communion with God and how God can actually do anything a human cannot? People can believe. They will never objectively know that they are in communion, until and unless they experience it. As far as God can do something a human cannot, I can only say that such a question is ridiculous at best. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: No. I believe that Jesus was and is God. Despite this, Jesus didn't walk around like superman or like Jim Carey in Bruce Almighty. So you say that you can do anything that god can do? I agree with you that Jesus was human. Whether or not he was also God is irrelevant because he never used that---as far as we know---to any unfair advantage. What he did have was an intuition into the hearts and minds of others. He also had a strong relationship with his father, creator of all seen and unseen. Chambers describes it thus: quote:Perhaps you feel and believe that doing your best every day is as close as you can get to communion. Your analytical mind has never understood communion and I for one dont understand it enough to explain it to you. I am still learning Who He Is. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Rosebrough is a conservative Lutheran who is not out to make a ton of money as Benny Hinn did. He interviews Hinns Nephew and the conversation exemplifies some key points regarding mainstream Club Christian versus Evangelical Club Money.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith |
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: No, I believe that we are the ones who are needy. God is gracious enough to put up with us. You may have a narrower brush than does the Soviet Union, but I'm not so sure.... What if "the enemy" itself is just a figment of your imagination? What if those of us without tinfoil hats are not being lied to? Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: That's what is so great about our discussions. There is always another hand....
Perhaps God is so incredible that He is there for all of those who need them, and doesn't get in the way for those who don't.On the other hand... jar writes: Though I agree with your assessment of the fact that there are always many different and mutually exclusive and contradictory revelations or descriptions of God, i would also argue that there are many similar descriptions. From my own personal experience, I can usually intuitively discern who has actually spent a lot of time praying and questioning God rather than simply parroting what the evangelical industrial complex touts as the party line. You often ask me how I know it is God and not simply a bad burrito. My answer is that strictly speaking, I wouldnt have any concrete evidence apart from the fact that if it were a bad burrito, many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market.
"... He reveals to you who He is." Nonsense. How does God reveal who He is and why are there so many different and mutually exclusive contradictory revelations of who It is? Stile writes: I agree that this scenario could certainly be possible. I believe that God is willing to commune with those who seek communion through prayer, meditation, or even daily action...but as to why God is willing, I can only say that I believe it is Gods nature to offer assistance, comfort, and encouragement. Perhaps the universe is so incredible that God exists for those who need Him (faith, belief, imagination...), and God does not exist for those who don't. I think it is logical that God would simply leave those who prefer to be left alone to themselves...though I believe that everyone encounters God at some point ...perhaps for some after death. Perhaps for some of us, we only encounter God through other humans and are judged based on our interactions, motives, and actions. In my previous video, I show Costi Hinn being interviewed by Chris Rosebrough. One cannot simply label every TV, Radio, or online Pastor as a joke. Judge them by their fruits. Someone once said that Hollywood is like a bowl of cereal...full of fruits, nuts, and flakes! So too with evangelical Christianity, but there are some...a minority to be sure....who have sound and/or supportable doctrine. Finally a question for all of us to ponder: What Have I Done Today? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: All of the evidence shows that many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market. Which brings up Mob Mentality of a large group.
quote:This would explain how many members of the CCOI learn their behavior and beliefs through group dynamics rather than individual critical thought and scholarship. When the Bible is quoted, apart from Sunday school classes or Bible Studies...and even in those sometimes...the meaning is generally conveyed as a given consensus. As I commented before, however, not all teachers are void of sound instruction and support behind their views and beliefs. The Discernment Ministry of conservative Lutheran Chris Rosebrough is based on solid Lutheran theology. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Did you even read the link or know who Chris Rosebrough is? Or as usual, just repeating your own pet assertions about US Christian religion in general?
The Discernment Ministry is nothing but a "Not My Cult" cult. So even if I proved to you that Chris was mainstream Lutheran, you would assert that Lutheranism is a Not My Club Club? Granted Lutheranism is not the same as Episcopalianism, but tio label it a cult is simply advertising your own tendency to lump much of US mainstream Christianity into a "cult of ignorance" while at the same time repeating your own belief. Edited by Phat, : added point Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: In a sense, I *do* see God that way. I figure that He foreknows our destiny and does not see a promising outcome. Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore. I believe that He desires that we stay alive and not become extinct.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
They don't think that there is any difference between believers and nonbelievers and there is really no way to prove that there is.....
I know where you are coming from, however.
1 Corinthians 3:18-19 writes: 1 Cor 3:18-19 18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: In fact I DO see God as a parental figure for society. We are often referred to as His children. Let's try again: "Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore." And any child worth their salt always communicates with their aged parents...Honor thy father and Mother...dont simply grow up and isolate yourself with your own family. The concept of the extended family seems missing in the West...one of our sins.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I believe that God wants us to need Him. He of course needs nothing.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It must be convenient for you to be your own judge. Isnt it nice to wipe away all of your own sins?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Let's run with this a minute and presuppose that the Christian God is similar to a parental figure.
If you were a parent, which would you be prouder of. A child who always called you to have you tell them what to do at all times, We first need to arrive at a consensus of what would be considered successful and whether such a life could be approved by this God. Or, a child, taking the lessons you taught, applying them properly, was able to make their own way in the world and be successful, with the fruit of their own labor? Todays Christians have many different varieties of jobs---from Janitor to Investment Banker. Virtually all claim to have a relationship or at least an understanding of Who God is and how they understand Him. On what grounds do they believe He approves of their choices, actions, and professions in life?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: So, does God feel inadequate when some of us don't acknowledge any need for Him?
Im not sure how He would feel. Puzzled comes to mind. (But thats my human take on it) The guy on the corner counts on you for money (the fruits of your labor) Does God count on the same from us? Not so much because He needs anything, but just so His people all get fed. (not sure he would look the other way when the guy bought drugs with your hard earned dollar, but thats between the guy and God. ) To summarize, I believe that God is present and aware of our lives, that He has an interest in our success, and that He makes himself available---through prayer or meditation---in the event that we do need to call home for advice, encouragement, and comfort. Once again, though---we need to nail down what God would consider to be defined as success for us--His spiritual offspring. (and as to what He would think of those who did not wish to be part of such a spiritual communion, what alternative are they envisioning?)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The good father feeds his children with knowledge instead of bread? My Father provided plenty of bread but not so much knowledge. I was forced to find that on my own, though when a man has a full stomach he is not as desperate to find ways to earn his own bread. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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