Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 410 of 3207 (828860)
02-25-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:26 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
You're creating a God in your imagination Who creates everything in His imagination. And you constantly accuse me of wanting to be my own God.
Could be. Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:35 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 412 of 3207 (828865)
02-25-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:35 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
I can describe a carrot because I've seen one. How do you describe something you can't see? Worse than that, how do you describe something that you imagine is deliberately hiding from you?
Well you are off to a good start! You are describing your frustration---at some earlier point in your life--of being unable to find the God that other children could describe so easily. Of course since that early learning experience, you may well have concluded that they were simply copying off of the papers of others who had claimed to see such a God, while you yourself stood still like the child in The Emperors New Clothes who cries out "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"
You have since confirmed--at least in your own mind--that God is not hiding---He simply does not exist. Since you adopted science and evidence as your criteria for everything, you quite naturally cannot describe a hidden concept.
So back to my question.
Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?
Logically, the answer is no. It is not possible.
So try creating this God that was hiding. What attributes does he have? How does He feel about you or I? Or anything, for that matter?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 2:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 416 of 3207 (828882)
02-26-2018 10:39 AM


Knock Knock Knocking Down Straw Gods
You two are something else! It is almost as if you are challenging each other to make the first move so that the other one can counter it.
I'll start by defining God. Keep in mind, however, that my defining Him is nott intended to be my creating Him. I believe that since He is the uncaused first cause, He defined/created all of us before any one of us imagined/defined Him.(and I use "Him" only as a reference and not as a gender definition. )
So to begin with, I would define God as the Creator of ideas, definitions, concepts, matter, energy, and ultimately reality itself as we collectively experience and understand it to be. Logically, if God exists and always has existed, God would have transcended all human religious definitions and attempts at definition.
Thats my subjective definition, for starters.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Rrhain, posted 02-26-2018 9:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 417 of 3207 (828885)
02-26-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by ringo
02-25-2018 2:01 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:
So try creating this God that was hiding.
ringo writes:
You've already done that, so I'll just go with your description.
It's your story---how could I create the god that you claimed was hidden?
Or did you mean metaphorically hidden---as in invisible, hence logically non-existent?
I shall submit your truth claim to the court for further review.
I argue that by using the term "hidden" we should assume that you have something to hide.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 2:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 02-26-2018 11:34 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 419 of 3207 (828897)
02-26-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by ringo
02-26-2018 11:34 AM


God and Football
His followers advertise, but apparently, the crowd-at-large prefers sports.
ringo writes:
Why doesn't He preach in stadiums like Billy Graham?
Some would say that he used Billy to do the job. Others may argue that Jesus---even if He lived in todays culture--would never do such a thing. You would be more likely to find God hanging out down with your homeless friends..
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 02-26-2018 11:34 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Rrhain, posted 02-26-2018 9:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 426 by ringo, posted 02-27-2018 10:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 441 of 3207 (829499)
03-08-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by Tangle
03-08-2018 3:26 AM


It seems to me that all that rrhain can do is disprove the validity of one's definitions. Since he believes that something undefined cannot exist, he claims victory. God, however, does not need any of our individual proofs nor definitions in order to exist.
jars construct explains it well:
quote:
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.
If GOD doesn't exist, It doesn't exist regardless of evidence It does exist.
In other words, the argument is not framed by human definition...apart from the logic of this construct.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 3:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 5:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 444 by Rrhain, posted 03-08-2018 7:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 447 of 3207 (829548)
03-09-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by Tangle
03-09-2018 2:50 AM


The Irony
It suddenly occurred to me...quite humorously in fact--about how two of our resident atheists (Rrhain and Tangle) were actually engaged in an argument about proving that God does not exist.
I remember one time long ago when I was at a debate between the college Christian Club and an atheist, supported by the faculty.
The atheist ended up winning the debate due to superior logic, but the attitude was one of intellectual smugness and contrasted with the humility of the Christians.
Which I think speaks volumes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 11:18 AM Phat has replied
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2018 1:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 454 by Rrhain, posted 03-09-2018 5:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 448 of 3207 (829549)
03-09-2018 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by Rrhain
03-08-2018 7:31 PM


Believe It Or Not
Rrhain,to Tangle writes:
Pretend the problem is merely that the definition of god isn't known as opposed to there not being a definition of god to be known. I'm sure you'll get something new this time.
But that's the essence of belief. The definition is not based on logic or fact.It is based on belief. Granted it is often derived from stories which others have written.
To actually make up one's own story in order to define the God in whom they believe seems a bit far-fetched.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Rrhain, posted 03-08-2018 7:31 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Rrhain, posted 03-09-2018 5:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 450 of 3207 (829559)
03-09-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by ringo
03-09-2018 11:18 AM


Re: The Irony
Are you really fooling yourself? Were those the real attitudes or were they what your apologetics told you to see?
I was there. I watched the debate and the audience reactions. If my apologetics had any influence, it certainly didn't make me less honest. This happened in the year 2000, the last year I was in college.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 461 of 3207 (829887)
03-16-2018 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by kjsimons
03-14-2018 9:25 AM


My only problem with this logic trail is that it serves to put God in a box, so to speak...insisting that without our ability to define something it then follows that something doesn't exist.
By the way, what do you think of this oft-quoted logic?
Update Your Browser | Facebook

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by kjsimons, posted 03-14-2018 9:25 AM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by kjsimons, posted 03-16-2018 9:30 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 463 by Stile, posted 03-16-2018 10:16 AM Phat has replied
 Message 465 by ringo, posted 03-16-2018 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 464 of 3207 (829894)
03-16-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Stile
03-16-2018 10:16 AM


Gods attitude towards our "attitudes"
Not sure I understand...
Person finds out God actually did not exist.
Therefore, all the time and effort put into "believing in God" was completely wasted and could have been focused on living an even better "good life."
Perhaps someone could have saved a lot of time,but what effort is wasted in belief? I ask myself what I would do that would lead to my life being any better than it is now?
Stile writes:
This only makes sense if you think God would be a dick and think negatively about someone who doesn't believe in God...
Good point, unless Gods concern was not the belief itself but the attitude carried with it. Believers are as guilty of this as anyone.
kjsimons writes:
The quote is also biased toward monotheism, which is a slap in the face to any polytheistic religious followers.
This whole idea of trying to please everyone and not offend anyone is unrealistic. Everything that we as a society do is likely insulting to someone

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Stile, posted 03-16-2018 10:16 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by kjsimons, posted 03-16-2018 12:33 PM Phat has replied
 Message 468 by Stile, posted 03-16-2018 12:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 472 by Rrhain, posted 03-18-2018 12:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 466 of 3207 (829896)
03-16-2018 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Rrhain
03-13-2018 8:27 PM


Rrhaining On Definitions
Rrhain writes:
You're the one saying that "god" cannot be disproven. Therefore, you're the one with the burden of proof on defining "god." Otherwise, you will claim "straw godding" (and rightfully so).
The fact that you refuse to define what you mean indicates that your claim is false since things without definition do not exist.
Not sure I agree with the claim that things without definition cannot exist. Take this response:
Questions | AskPhilosophers.org
Ask Philosophers writes:
(from the internet) I suspect you may be principally concerned with the problem of affirming that something (X) exists, and whether this affirmation is meaningful if we lack a definition of X. On the face of it, there would be a problem with someone claiming: "Call the reporters. There is something I will refer to as 'N,' but I have absolutely no idea or definition of what 'N' might be. It could be an animal or number or time of day, for I know." Such a claim would be as bizarre as what we find in Alice in Wonderland. Even so, I suggest that we should distinguish claims about meaningful speech and claims about what does or does not exist. Even if we cannot make claims about what does or does not exist without (at least vague) definitions, it is another thing to claim that there only exists things we can make meaningful claims about. Sadly, we can imagine the whole human species perishing from some force which we cannot comprehend (and thus we cannot define) That is such a grim thought to end this reply, let me change the example: we can imagine that cancer and depression might be eradicated by a force that we human beings cannot comprehend or define.
To me, this argument makes as much sense as your claim.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Rrhain, posted 03-13-2018 8:27 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Rrhain, posted 03-18-2018 1:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 469 of 3207 (829902)
03-16-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by kjsimons
03-16-2018 12:33 PM


Re: Gods attitude towards our "attitudes"
Do you think less of a person if they don't believe in God or that they are evil or bad as the quote you linked to implies?
Upon reflection? No.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by kjsimons, posted 03-16-2018 12:33 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 479 of 3207 (830271)
03-26-2018 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by Rrhain
03-26-2018 4:04 AM


Assertions Open To Interpretation
Rrhain writes:
If there is a god, then it purposefully, consciously, and deliberately created the diverse species on the planet.
The species on the planet were not purposefully, consciously, and deliberately created.
Therefore, there is no god.
The whole problem with your line of reasoning is that it is Rrhain-centric. You may well be able to poof God out of existence in your own mind, and your logic may be impeccable, but if God exists, he needs no acknowledgment from an actor named Rrhain.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Rrhain, posted 03-26-2018 4:04 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Rrhain, posted 04-04-2018 4:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 483 of 3207 (830662)
04-04-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Rrhain
04-04-2018 4:04 PM


Re: Assertions Open To Interpretation
Rrhain writes:
I don't deny that there is the possibility of some amazing being out there. After all, compare the abilities that we as humans have compared to other living things we've noticed on this planet. But just as we are not "god" compared to viruses (even though we are able to create viruses de novo), that other being would not be "god" but just another being, part and parcel of existence.
But you might disagree with that concept of "god." This is why it isn't up to me to provide that definition. It isn't my burden of proof.
You're the one saying that god exists. You're the one who needs to define what it is you mean by that word.
So basically, (correct me if I'm wrong...) all that you are doing is disproving each God that we create/define/describe. In order to do this, you start with the default conclusion that no God exists. Which may or may not be true.
Technically you win this argument by shifting the burden of proof onto the positive truth claims as they are slow-pitched to you one at a time...which shows that you are great at verbal softball, but have done nothing to disprove the God who may exist...regardless of and despite our feeble attempts at definition.
In other words, I am challenging your initial ground rule of no God as a default position. May or may not is the standard...not does not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Rrhain, posted 04-04-2018 4:04 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Rrhain, posted 04-04-2018 8:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024