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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 89 of 1184 (828735)
02-23-2018 7:37 AM


Putting armed people in the schools doesn't work
From today's New York Times: Armed Deputy ‘Never Went In’ During Shooting
Of course, first responders armed with this:
Don't usually fare too well when going up against this:
As several articles have noted, first responders face the highest risk of injury and death. A dead first responder is no help to anyone. Prudence and caution is called for. The idea of arming teachers with handguns and expecting them to face down assault weapons is a bad one. You'll just get more dead heroes.
Since Columbine "authorities have emphasized the importance of pursuing the attacker of attackers quickly" (Armed sheriff's deputy stayed outside Florida school while mass killing took place). But the article, quoting from the Police Executive Research Forum, also says:
quote:
Of course, this approach brings with it inherent issues, the report continued, because a faster response is more dangerous to responding officers. Patrol officers who quickly move to confront an active shooter face a high likelihood of being shot themselves.
I think the deputy likely knew that.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 90 of 1184 (828736)
02-23-2018 7:44 AM


NRA's Wayne LaPierre Speaks Out
In a speech before the Conservative Political Action Conference, NRA head Wayne LaPierre lashed out at liberal gun control efforts:
quote:
The elites don’t care not one whit about America’s school system and school children.
"The elites?" You mean like the school kids from Parkland speaking out against guns? Those 14 through 18 year-old elites, and their 17 elite now-dead classmates? Those elites?
Or by "elites" do you mean Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, founded after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre?
Or maybe by "elites" you mean The Brady Campaign, founded after James Brady was severely wounded in the assassination attempt on Reagan?
Or maybe by "elites" you mean Americans for Responsible Solutions founded by former U.S. congresswoman Gabby Giffords after she was one of the victims of a mass shooting in Arizona?
quote:
Their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eradicate all individual freedoms.
Do you have any evidence, Mr. LaPierre, that there are "elites" trying to "eradicate all individual freedoms".
These "elites" as you describe them don't exist. You're engaging in fear-mongering to the paranoid right.
Back in the real world, all people want is reasonable gun control that would reduce gun deaths in this country. Since the 2nd amendment describes "a well regulated militia", obviously regulations are required in order to regulate those who might be candidates for this militia. Not that there are many such militias left in the country - the 2nd amendment is way antiquated and requires significant revision or repeal.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 91 of 1184 (828737)
02-23-2018 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
02-22-2018 6:48 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:
What false argument?
The false argument is the one I quoted from your Message 81. Here it is again:
Faith in Message 81 writes:
I don't claim more armed people would always work, just that there's some chance of it helping when a totally disarmed target audience just makes for sitting ducks.
This is false because "totally disarmed target audiences" sit safe and secure throughout the western world because they have many, many fewer guns and effective gun regulations, with the exception of the U.S.
Europe has Muslims,...
Your prejudices are showing again.
...we have lone crazed shooters.
First a couple comments: Columbine and San Bernadino each had two shooters, so sometimes they work in concert. And we have no more crazed shooters than any other civilized country. What we have is so many guns that it is easy for those inclined to mass murder to obtain them.
Second, a question: You still haven't said what you mean by "crazed shooter," except to say that you don't mean it's a mental health problem. What is it then? What are the qualities of a "crazed shooter" that would identify him before he shoots?
I think they were stupid to get rid of their guns.
And yet they have far lower gun homicide and suicide rates that can only be attributed to the much lower prevalence of guns. Protecting society through responsible legislation and regulation is smart, not stupid.
Where did I say they don't have mass shootings because they don't have many guns?
I never said you did say that. I think your eyes are playing tricks on you. Check my message Message 82 again. The words you're claiming I attributed to you are not within the quote box. That means they are my words, not your words. It was me that said, "Oh, wait a minute, those countries don't have mass shootings, because they haven't got many guns."
I don't recall saying anything of the sort.
That's because you didn't say anything of the sort. Nobody said you said anything of the sort. Either this is your eye problem acting up or maybe you had a few too many fingers of whiskey last night.
I do recall someone saying they don't have the problems we have which we supposedly have because we have so many guns, and I accepted that as a general description of a more homogeneous society,...
As Rrhain noted, you're making no sense to equate fewer guns with greater ethnic homogeneity. Fewer guns is a result of a country's gun regulations, not their ethnic makeup. Let's go down the list of top 20 deadliest mass shootings in the U.S. and see who was responsible and what their ethnic background was:
  • Las Vegas shooting, Stephen Paddock, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Orlando nightclub shooting, Omar Mateen, born U.S. citizen, ethnic Afghan male
  • Virginia Tech shooting, Seung-Hui Cho, South Korean male
  • Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Adam Lanza, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Sutherland Springs church shooting, Devin Patrick Kelley, born U.S. citizen, white male
    [(]Luby's shooting, George Hennard, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • San Ysidro McDonald's massacre, James Huberty, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • University of Texas tower shooting, Charles Whitman, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Nikolas Jacob Cruz, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • San Bernardino attack, Syed Rizwan Farook, born U.S. citizen, ethnic Pakistani male; Tashfeen Malik, Pakistani female
  • Edmond post office shooting, Patrick Sherrill, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Columbine High School massacre, Eric Harris, born U.S. citizen, white male; Dylan Klebold, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Binghamton shootings, Jiverly Antares Wong, naturalized U.S. citizen, ethnic South Vietnamese
  • Camden shootings, Howard Barton Unruh, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Wilkes-Barre shootings, George Emil Banks, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Fort Hood shooting, Nidal Hasan, born U.S. citizen, ethnic Palestinian male
  • Washington Navy Yard shooting, Aaron Alexis, born U.S. citizen, black male
  • Aurora shooting, James Eagan Holmes, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Geneva County massacre, Michael Kenneth McLendon, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • GMAC shootings, James Edward "Pop" Pough, born U.S. citizen, black male
  • Atlanta shootings, Mark Orrin Barton, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Red Lake shootings, Jeffrey Weise, born U.S. citizen, native American (Ojibwe people)
  • Umpqua Community College shooting, Chris Harper-Mercer, born U.S. citizen, white male
Only two of the murderers were not U.S. citizens, and only five were not ethnically black, white or native Americans.
It's the left that says no guns=no shootings, why would you impute such a notion to me?
It's rational people who understand that "no guns=no shootings", and I didn't impute such a notion to you.
You don't have to have an identifiable mental illness to do something evil.
So I take it you agree that all this talk about mental health professionals pre-detecting who will murder is nonsense.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 6:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 92 of 1184 (828738)
02-23-2018 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
02-23-2018 4:48 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:
The personal comments are against the rules and thoroughly disgusting.
The first disgusting comment in this thread came from you, when you attacked the Parkland students in your Message 49:
Faith in Message 49 writes:
We who think gun control is not the right response to these shootings naturally have a question why that is the solution proposed by the students. Could be leftist interference, no reason why that's not a possibility.
Then you began attacking "leftists" for talking about gun control after yet another school massacre. This is from your Message 55:
Faith in Message 55 writes:
I think it's reprehensible that gun control becomes this huge leftist cause every time there is a shooting like this, using an emotional situation to push their politics and drown out the other side.
And more of the same from your Message 64:
Faith in Message 64 writes:
If leftists didn't always immediately try to build their case for gun control after such a shooting, trying to pre-empt other points of view, there wouldn't be this predictable exchange of insults every time.
And even more of the same from your Message 69:
Faith in Message 69 writes:
I'm also for better gun control in general, but I think it's really slimy of the leftists who always jump on the crazed shooter cases to try to take guns away from everybody else.
But congratulations for always getting out in front of developments: you were the first to insult and issue disgusting comments, and also the first to complain about them.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:28 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 94 of 1184 (828754)
02-23-2018 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by NoNukes
02-23-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Heated Comments
Hi NoNukes,
This isn't really a reply to you, I'm more just adding a suggestion to your comments.
One thing people can do is write their congresspeople. Everyone living in the United States has two senators and one congressman (or congresswoman, as in my congressional district). They all have webpages that are easy to find, just type something like "representative district 2 nh" or "senators nh" in to Google. If you don't know what congressional district you're in you'll have to look that up, too.
The websites make it really easy to send messages to your congressional delegation. I write one message, then cut-n-paste it to all three, but at present they're all Democrats, so the same message is usually appropriate. If your congressional delegation is a mix of Democrats and Republicans, or if they just have different views on the topic, you may need to write more than one message.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2018 3:27 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 98 of 1184 (828766)
02-23-2018 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
02-23-2018 4:28 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:
Somebody needs to call you down hard, but I guess nobody will.
But I notice you don't deny making the first disgusting comment when you attacked Parkland students who had just witnessed their classmates slaughtered for voicing their opinions in your Message 49. And you don't deny that you attacked "leftists" in your Message 55, Message 64 and Message 69. And you don't deny the irony of you being the first to complain about personal comments when you were the first to make disgusting comments and attack your fellow participants.
As is often the case with you, you quickly abandon the topic and start complaining about your treatment. People are under no obligation here to ignore repugnant comments. If you're going to express repugnant personal opinions then of course people are going to comment on those opinions. For instance, your lack of compassion for victims as compared to the supposed rights of gun nuts is repugnant. Your belief that people's right to life is outweighed by gun nuts' supposed right to have their toys is repugnant. There's nothing else to say.
Do you have something to say about gun control? I've responded to you quite a bit, but you've only responded a few times. There's been no reply to my Message 54, Message 68, Message 75, Message 76, Message 77 or Message 91.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 6:27 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 100 of 1184 (828768)
02-23-2018 6:36 PM


Trump Wrong Again About Arming Teachers
At the White House meeting with students about school shootings President Trump said:
quote:
"If you had a teacher who was adept with the firearm, they could end the attack very quickly."
This is apparently obviously false. A study of the New York City Police Department's average hit rate found that it was 18%: Evaluation of the New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm-Discharge Review Process.
Any policeman, deputy, teacher or other armed person entering a school building that has been invaded by an active shooter has a very big problem. The shooter only has to shoot anything that moves. The rescuer has to pick out the shooter from other students. He will, one would expect, make very certain he is firing at the shooter and not at an innocent student, and this will entail delay, giving the shooter a big advantage.
I have nothing but sympathy for Deputy Scott Peterson who was suspended (and later resigned) for waiting outside and not entering the building after the attack began. I don't actually know what Peterson would say, he hasn't commented publicly, but were I him I would say, "I didn't sign up to get murdered. You issued me this pop gun, and I could hear that that was an assault rifle in there."
As the Police Executive Research Forum says:
quote:
Patrol officers who quickly move to confront an active shooter face a high likelihood of being shot themselves.
Reinforcing the fact that Deputy Peterson was inadequately armed, Sheriff: Deputies to begin carrying rifles on school grounds; teens storm Florida Capitol:
quote:
And at a news conference Wednesday, Broward County, Florida, Sheriff Scott Israel ordered all deputies who qualify to begin carrying rifles on school grounds. The rifles will be locked in patrol cars when not in use until the agency secures gun lockers and lockers, he said.
"We need to be able to defeat any threat that comes into campus," Israel said.
So now deputies will be able to carry rifles, but what kind of rifles and what kind of bullets?
And of course all of this only makes sense if you believe that the solution to the threat of guns is more and more powerful guns.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 101 of 1184 (828769)
02-23-2018 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
02-23-2018 6:27 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
My my, now you're frothing at the mouth. You still don't get the irony of being both the first to get personal and the first to complain about it. I also notice you're still unable deny anything I said.
Do you have anything to say about gun control? I posted a number of messages about gun control and recent events that you haven't replied to. Or are you now full into degrading the quality of discussion as much as possible?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 6:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 102 of 1184 (828770)
02-23-2018 6:57 PM


Companies that will and won't do business with the NRA
This information comes from the Huffington Post article These Companies Are Sticking By The NRA
First, these companies have announced they will cease doing business with the NRA:
  • Allied
  • Avis
  • Best Western
  • Budget
  • Chubb
  • Delta Airlines
  • Enterprise Holdings (Enterprise, National and Alamo rent-a-car companies)
  • First National Bank of Omaha
  • Hertz
  • MetLife
  • North American Van Lines
  • Norton
  • SimpliSafe
  • Starkey Hearing Technologies
  • Symantec's LifeLock
  • TrueCar
  • United Airlines
  • Wyndham Hotels
These companies will continue doing business with the NRA:
  • Amazon
  • Apple
  • AT&T
  • Clearent
  • eHealth
  • FedEx
  • Google
  • Harland Clarke Direct Selling Solution
  • HotelPlanner
  • Life Insurance Central
  • LifeLine Screening
  • Lockton Affinity
  • ManageUrlD
  • Medical Concierge Network
  • MidwayUSA
  • NetSpend
  • Roku
  • TrueCar
  • Vinesse Wines
  • Wild Apricot
  • YouTube (owned by Google)
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Add Avis and Hertz to list of companies ceasing business with the NRA. Make list alphabetical.
Edited by Percy, : Add Best Western, Delta Airlines and Wyndham Hotels to the "NRA No" list.
Edited by Percy, : Add Budget and United Airlines to the "NRA No" list.
Edited by Percy, : Add LifeLine Screening, Life Insurance Central, Medical Concierge Network and eHealth to "NRA Yes" list. Add Starkey Hearing Technologies to "NRA No" list.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 104 of 1184 (828772)
02-23-2018 8:49 PM


Republican Congressman Knows Pistols No Match for Assault Rifles
Congressman Brian Mast (R-FL) who lost his legs in Afghanistan supports an assault weapon ban, but more importantly he, too, makes the point about how ineffective a handgun is against an AR-15:
quote:
I conceal and carry a 9-millimeter pistol most days because I know the threats, and I don’t want to die because I am unprepared to return fire.
I also know that I am made less safe by the threat of tactical rifles. I am confident I can eliminate an active shooter who is attacking with a pistol because the attacker would have to be close to me. But the defense my concealed 9-millimeter affords me is largely gone if the attacker is firing from beyond 40 yards, as he could easily do with the AR-15.
Trump wants to issue teachers guns, setting them up to march toward the shooter and get slaughtered. Truthful training would tell these teachers that if they hear an assault rifle that their popgun is near useless and to not play hero.
Of course, more guns is the wrong answer anyway.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 4:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 107 of 1184 (828789)
02-24-2018 7:18 AM


And...Teacher Gun Accidents Already a Fact
That arming teachers is a bad idea was already obvious. Here's a news report from CBS News from a few years ago: Idaho State University teacher accidentally shootsl self in class
quote:
POCATELLO, Idaho -- An Idaho State University instructor was wounded in the foot after a concealed handgun in the person's pocket discharged during a chemistry lab session with students in the room, school officials said.
In related news, the Ohio 7th grader who shot himself in a school bathroom a few days ago has died: Ohio 7th grader dies after shooting himself on middle school campus. It is not known how he got the weapon (a .22 long gun) into the school or whether the shooting was accidental.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 111 of 1184 (828870)
02-25-2018 5:16 PM


Add Libraries to the List of Unsafe/Unsecured/Unhardened Places
Yesterday a man entered a Winchester, Massachusetts, library with a 10-inch hunting knife and murdered a patron leaning over a book at a reading table. He was quickly restrained by other patrons, but what if he had had an AR-15? So libraries aren't safe, either, and the NRA and Trump should be preparing to arm librarians.
Source: Library Stabbing
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 02-25-2018 10:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 121 of 1184 (828927)
02-27-2018 10:38 AM


Jimmy Fallon Will March
On last night's Tonight Show Jimmy Fallon announced that he, his wife and two kids will march with the students on March 24th in Washington D.C. in the March For Out Lives, demanding change and action by Congress to bring school mass shootings to an end.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 126 of 1184 (828987)
02-28-2018 8:13 AM


Details About the AR-15
From With AR-15s, Mass Shooters Attack With the Rifle Firepower Typically Used by Infantry Troops:
quote:
The main functional difference between the military’s M16 and M4 rifles and a civilian AR-15 is the burst mode on many military models, which allow three rounds to be fired with one trigger pull. Some military versions of the rifles have a full automatic feature, which fires until the trigger is released or a magazine is empty of ammunition.
But in actual American combat these technical differences are less significant than they seem. For decades the American military has trained its conventional troops to fire their M4s and M16s in the semiautomatic mode one bullet per trigger pull instead of on burst or automatic in almost all shooting situations. The weapons are more accurate this way, and thus more lethal.
The National Rifle Association and other pro-gun groups highlight the fully automatic feature in military M4s and M16s. But the American military, after a long experience with fully automatic M16s reaching back to Vietnam, decided by the 1980s to issue M16s, and later M4s, to most conventional troops without the fully automatic function, and to train them to fire in a more controlled fashion.
What all of this means is that the Parkland gunman, in practical terms, had the same rifle firepower as an American grunt using a standard infantry rifle in the standard way.
...
They are the Formula One cars of guns, designed to kill as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible, Mr. Plenzler said, referring to AR-15-style rifles. We are seeing battlefield-level casualties because we are allowing those weapons on our street, he said.
...
A New York Times analysis of a video from a Florida classroom estimates that during his crime the gunman fired his AR-15 as quickly as one-and-a-half rounds per second. The military trains soldiers to fire at a sustained rate of 12 to 15 rounds per minute, or a round every four or five seconds.
The small-caliber, high-velocity rounds used in the military rifles are identical to those sold for the civilian weapons. They have been documented inflicting grievous bone and soft-tissue wounds. Both civilian and military models of the rifle are lightweight and have very little recoil.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 128 of 1184 (829046)
03-01-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by NoNukes
02-28-2018 10:55 PM


Re: Having a buffoon on your side... Not always that helpful.
I see three problems with Trump's gun control comments:
  1. When Trump invites in the cameras, Trump just plays to the audience. What he says cannot be relied upon.
  2. As often noted, Trump mouths the opinion he heard last, in this case public opinion. What he says cannot be relied upon.
  3. Trump is extremely bad at consistency and followthrough. What he says cannot be relied upon.
You're right that Democrats should promote their own proposals - attempting to follow the president's lead would be like trying to follow smoke wafting through the air that eventually dissipates and disappears.
I agree about due process. Hopefully we can significantly reduce gun prevalence legislatively through gun control.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by NoNukes, posted 02-28-2018 10:55 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2018 7:49 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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