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Author Topic:   God’s witness ?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 17 (829067)
03-02-2018 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
03-02-2018 11:23 AM


Human Nature
I suppose it is human nature to assign the penultimate status to your own belief.
When I first got saved in 1993, I found myself researching my own chosen belief in the context of the apologetic books (and later websites) of that time. jar, our friendly resident curmudgeon, educated me on how to be unbiased and more objective in my learning. I watch how our member Faith defends her beliefs stubbornly and determinedly, never allowing herself to be fully objective and unbiased, but I think this has to do with human nature.
An example of articles that I used to read include ones like this:
The Big Religion Chart
Even today, I have a problem with 100% objectivity because it goes at odds with my belief which I hesitate to throw away in the name of objectivity.
PaulK writes:
...But why should they be taken any more seriously than this Mormon ?
I also have a problem assigning the same value to any belief apart from my own. I was always taught (and believed) that standing for something was better than falling for just anything (or nothing).
Edited by Phat, : added
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 03-02-2018 11:23 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 03-02-2018 12:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 5 by jar, posted 03-02-2018 12:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 17 (829124)
03-03-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
03-02-2018 12:23 PM


Re: Human Nature
ringo writes:
By that logic, it's better to stand for the "wrong" gods than to be unsure of which gods, if any, are real.
And you live by your credo. Your life is so based on evidence that you would stand forever...if necessary...waiting for the evidence and never choose to believe anything.
I had no fear that I would somehow choose the wrong god. In my belief there is only one of them anyway, so the decision is to basically either choose or not choose pending evidence. What your sentence should say is this:
By that logic, its better to choose than to wait for evidence.
Which, by the way, you long ago chose not to do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 03-02-2018 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 1:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 17 (829128)
03-03-2018 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
03-02-2018 12:36 PM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
GOD does need support or anyone to stand.
The question is whether God cares whether or not we acknowledge her. You have gone on record as stating that she does not. I maintain that she does. I have no argument with tending to the least of these...that's standing for doing all that we can.
On a mental (and spiritual) health level, I am also arguing that we need to feel a connection with our Creator.
You, of course, will probably ask what you always ask...namely How would we know that we were communicating with God rather than indigestion or internal warm fuzzies. My response? We would simply have to go by belief and faith.
There has never been any evidence. That's what faith is all about.
And this answers the topic: A Mormon has no better knowledge than does a Christian or a Buddhist or an atheist. Most of the religious folks care...and need some sort of internal peace about who they are working for. The atheists need no such verification and don't even consider it.
It would be interesting to get a survey on the number of atheists feeding the homeless and sheltering them versus religious folk. One thing is sure...they wouldn't care WHO they were working for.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 03-02-2018 12:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-03-2018 5:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 03-03-2018 11:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 17 (829178)
03-04-2018 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rrhain
03-03-2018 11:26 PM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
So atheists paying taxes to the government that is then used for programs that feed the homeless and sheltering them doesn't count?
No. Checkbooks don't impress me.
It only counts if you have a dedicated program based upon your theist position? It only counts as an atheist helping someone if they help "in the name of atheism"?
No. It counts if the worker is doing work towards the general cause that I mentioned. Who they are doing it under is irrelevant.
Johns Hopkins Hospital was created specifically to have a hospital that wasn't affiliated with a church.
I did not know that. Interesting.
Does that count?
First we have to come to an agreement of how we could even gather such information. I'm just curious if the numbers of those doing for the least of these, jars charge, are consistent across all types of people.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 03-03-2018 11:26 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-04-2018 7:16 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 17 (829184)
03-04-2018 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-04-2018 7:16 AM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
Based on that criteria, anyone who pays taxes is indirectly doing the "will of God".
In my opinion, there are too many loopholes.
Since the rich pay most of the taxes, are they doing the will of God through their taxes?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-04-2018 7:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-04-2018 9:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 1:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 17 (829246)
03-04-2018 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
03-03-2018 5:09 PM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
jar writes:
So you agree it is the humans with the need?
. Yes. I can only speculate about Gods feelings in all of this. Likely God would want humans to help each other. She would have no needs from us, apart from a possibility of communication and the ability to help us see ourselves in a new way. This, by the way, is one of our points of contention.
While I claim that the God I envision desires communion, communication, and the ability and opportunity to help us, you see that as a hindrance should it be true....focusing on the importance of the development and application of personal responsibility to ourselves and for others.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-03-2018 5:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 03-04-2018 5:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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