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caffeine Member (Idle past 1053 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
quote:By 'infinite' in this context I meant 'infinitely old', not 'infinite in expanse' But I do not believe there is a difference in infinitely old and infinite in expanse. As I have said many time I believe the universe has always existed just not in the form we see it today. I believe the universe is infinite in every direction, that means in duration and size. The universe may change from point A to point B. But it never ceases to exist, I retract my previous statement; as apparently NoNukes was correct. You were changing the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to eternal. No problem if you believe both of the above, but you can see that they are different, no?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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ICANT writes:
But it isn't the same kind of "spreading" as expansion.
You can't unfold or unroll a tent without spreading it out. ICANT writes:
You're misunderstanding those pictures. The "forward direction" is the time axis. The universe is expanding in three dimensions - a sphere, not a circle. The pictures are attempting to show four dimensions in two dimensions. All the pictures I see and descriptions given have the universe beginning at a point and then expanding in a forward direction from that point.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I retract my previous statement; as apparently NoNukes was correct. You were changing the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to eternal. I appreciate the retraction, but you were more right than wrong. I spent way too much time arguing with ICANT over that issue. ICANT's style of presentation is what it is. Getting irritated at his antics is pointless. And for what it's worth, scientists do not claim that the universe is either eternal or infinite. Accordingly, his argument is baseless. When you wrestle with a pig, two things happen. You get all muddy, and the pig likes it. Edited by NoNukes, : add some clarification about infinity Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: You're misunderstanding those pictures. The "forward direction" is the time axis. The universe is expanding in three dimensions - a sphere, not a circle. The pictures are attempting to show four dimensions in two dimensions. What is the mechanism that would cause the universe to expand in a forward direction. The universe according to the BBT existed in a very, very, very small infinite volume at a very hot dense state. Since space is said to have increased between each of the quarks what would be the mechanism that would keep it from expanding into a sphere which is a perfectly round geometrical object? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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it seems the pictures cant describe the actual expansion theorized as they are not 3-dimensional diagrams, time being the 4th dimension. Or am I misunderstanding the argument? It appears to me that the universe was "created" in time. The mechanism in my mind would have to be whatever it was that created this universe.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The mechanism in my mind would have to be whatever it was that created this universe. Why does there have to be something that created this universe?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind But reality does not depend on what we consider to be satisfactory.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind Which is why you - and others like you - have all this magical thinking, from your religious beliefs through to your gambling, diets and medicines. You're searching for magic and it doesn't exist. Accepting what we have for what it is, would solve all your problems at a stroke.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh screaming nonsense.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
As I said, it is not expanding in a "forward direction". You're misunderstanding the pictures.
What is the mechanism that would cause the universe to expand in a forward direction. ICANT writes:
That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time. Since space is said to have increased between each of the quarks what would be the mechanism that would keep it from expanding into a sphere which is a perfectly round geometrical object?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Phat
Phat writes: it seems the pictures cant describe the actual expansion theorized as they are not 3-dimensional diagrams, time being the 4th dimension. Or am I misunderstanding the argument? It appears to me that the universe was "created" in time. The mechanism in my mind would have to be whatever it was that created this universe. You do know that all the pictures are nothing more than the imagination of someone as there was no one there to observe what took place. Neither can what took place be observed in a lab.Therefore everything concerning the early universe is based on assumptions. I can find no one who can tell me what time is. Neither can they tell me how to measure time. If you don't know what time is you can't tell me how it is measured. If it can't be measured, how can it be a dimension? According to the BBT time is a dimension of the universe therefore the universe was not created in time. Time according to Hawking is imaginary time that goes in a vertical direction. It seems this assumption was made so the universe could have a beginning to exist. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Tangle
Tangle writes: Accepting what we have for what it is, would solve all your problems at a stroke. All you have are assumptions unless you have some scientific facts that I have not been able to find. If you have the scientific facts about how the universe began to exist please present them for consideration. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo
ringo writes: As I said, it is not expanding in a "forward direction". You're misunderstanding the pictures. No I am not misunderstanding the pictures. It actually shows the universe expanding in a forward direction. It does not show the universe expanding in every direction at the same time.
ringo writes: That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time. But the universe is not expanding in a time related forward direction. It is a sphere expanding in every possible direction simultaneously. Therefore it should look like a sphere. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: All you have are assumptions unless you have some scientific facts that I have not been able to find. Science could present you with gold plated proof but you would still claim it false - because of what you believe. What we actually have is a large body of consilient evidence over multiple disciplines about how we think things work.
If you have the scientific facts about how the universe began to exist please present them for consideration. What we know and what we hypothesise about how the universe began is all available for anyone with the education and the mind to grasp it. That excludes both you and I. But it's not necessary to know everything about the universe to know beyond all doubt that the superstitious beliefs of primitive peopls can be put aside for what they are.
God Bless Don't waste your bandwith on me, save it for the ignorant. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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