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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Coyote
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1756 of 2887 (831095)
04-11-2018 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1725 by Faith
04-11-2018 3:14 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The other methods of dating take you no further back than 10,000 years, such as tree rings.

That is false. Look at the different items which go way beyond 10,000 years, and look at the agreement among the different materials.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1725 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 3:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1757 of 2887 (831096)
04-11-2018 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1726 by Faith
04-11-2018 3:15 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I'm showing that what you call "science" is nothing but subjective imagination.

All you are showing is that religious belief can be, and often is, disproved by science and that believers will refuse to accept the evidence, no matter how strong it isl


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1726 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 3:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 1758 of 2887 (831097)
04-12-2018 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1745 by Faith
04-11-2018 6:47 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

There is no lie where the focus is on the physical facts in the effort to prove the Flood based on those facts.

Even when deception by omission is involved ?

And how about your case where you invent facts ?

The physical evidence is strongly against the Flood, which is why you have to invent facts, misrepresent opposing views and ignore opposing evidence or come up with wild fantasies in an attempt to explain it away.

quote:

The lie is on the other side where you insist on the term "religion" to discredit the scientific effort of creationists.

Funny how you call the truth a lie. Youve already admitted that your objective is to prove a religious doctrine and we know you arent restricted by reason or evidence or honesty.

quote:

If the Bible is true history, as of course YECs believe, it's like any other source of actual fact, on which science can certainly be based.

And here you admit that YEC is based on religious belief. On a religious belief at odds with both the findings of history and science and even scholarly study of the Bible itself. YEC is primarily religious apologetics, of that fact there can be no doubt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1745 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 6:47 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 1759 of 2887 (831098)
04-12-2018 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1716 by Faith
04-11-2018 12:42 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The early geologists came to believe in long ages in spite of their pre-conceived ideas, which were to look for evidence of the Flood and recent creation. They changed because of what they found. They were not trying to disprove God. One early thing was seeing the lack of erosion of the rocks of Hadrian's wall over nearly 2000 years, compared to the nearby hills.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1716 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 12:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1762 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 2:40 AM Pollux has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 1760 of 2887 (831100)
04-12-2018 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1750 by Faith
04-11-2018 7:10 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Lets review these as claims to produce a model.

quote:

how water lays down sedimentary strata

And the fact that you concentrate on narrow flumes and volcanic eruptions as your models of deposition - neither of which are plausible causes of anything more than a part of the geological record rather undermines that. Besides we have sedimentary strata not laid down by water, too.

quote:

how sedimentary strata make no sense in the timescale paradigm

Claiming that an opposing model is inadequate does not mean that you have a model. Especially when the claim is dubious.

quote:

how the huge numbers of fossils are consistent with the Flood and not the timescale piecemeal deposition model

You have shown no such thing. You havent even shown that the number of fossils is plausible if the Flood were the cause.

quote:

how the timescale interpretation of the "fossil order" has no objective basis, it's all pure imagination

You have shown no such thing. You havent even tried to show such a thing. All you hVe is a silly excuse for rejecting dating evidence.

quote:

how all the strata were laid down flat and straight before any kind of tectonic or volcanic disturbance affected them

The evidence shows many cases of tectonic events that occurred before all the strata were deposited. The assertion that you have shown otherwise is just a falsehood.

quote:

how their initial flatness and straightness is consistent with the Flood and not with the timescale paradigm

And another falsehood.

quote:

how dating methods can't be proved

In reality the correlation of independent methods - which we have - is very strong evidence for the reliability of dating methods. Ignoring that fact - as you do - hardly helps your case.

So, in fact, all your claims to have a model are in Fact claims to have evidential support - and they are nearly all outright lies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1750 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 7:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 11-13-2011


(2)
Message 1761 of 2887 (831101)
04-12-2018 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1747 by Faith
04-11-2018 7:01 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
There is abundant evidence for the validity of current dating methods, with a lot in RAZD's excellent thread.

Toba is a volcano in Indonesia which had a mega-eruption dated at about 74,000 years ago. This produced about 3000 cubic kilometres of volcanic product - i.e. 100+ Krakatoas . A layer of its ash in India has human artefacts above and below it.
Over in Africa in Lake Malawi, a core taken from it shows a linear increase in C14 date with depth to C14 limit at 50,000 years. Toba ash is found half as far again below, just as you would expect, at 42 metres.
There is a further 500m of sediment in the core, with sedimentary rock at the base.
Greenland ice cores show a marked spike of volcanic gases (though no ash) at the expected count of 74,000 years.

So three different methods give the same date for Toba.

If most ancient volcanism occurred with the Flood, more than 100,000,000 cubic km being erupted in a short time should leave some specific evidence, not smaller amounts through the fossil
record with the range of dates seen for them.

Edited by Pollux, : remove surplus words


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1747 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 7:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1764 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 3:00 AM Pollux has not yet responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1762 of 2887 (831103)
04-12-2018 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1759 by Pollux
04-12-2018 12:22 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The early geologists came to believe in long ages in spite of their pre-conceived ideas, which were to look for evidence of the Flood and recent creation. They changed because of what they found. They were not trying to disprove God.

I understand that. I just think it's a sad chapter in the history of science that they didn't recognize that the entire geologic column is evidence of the Flood.

One early thing was seeing the lack of erosion of the rocks of Hadrian's wall over nearly 2000 years, compared to the nearby hills.

I can't figure out how that would dissuade them from the Flood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1759 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 12:22 AM Pollux has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1763 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 2:58 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1766 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2018 3:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 1763 of 2887 (831104)
04-12-2018 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1762 by Faith
04-12-2018 2:40 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith, you are wonderful!
What the early geologists concluded was a TRIUMPH for science over preconceived ideas. They thought one thing, but the evidence proved them wrong, so they changed their opinion. That is what we all should be prepared to do.

For Hadrian's wall, there was little erosion on the cut rocks forming the wall in 2000 years, compared to the natural rocks, showing that the latter had been exposed for orders of magnitude longer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1762 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 2:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1765 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 3:07 AM Pollux has not yet responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1764 of 2887 (831105)
04-12-2018 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1761 by Pollux
04-12-2018 12:46 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
That is very interesting and it raises a lot of questons in my mind that would probably take over this thread to no good purpose since I'm not up on volcanism.

One thought: Getting agreement on numbers seems impressive but it may only reflect that the method is consistent though the actual dates it gives may not be trustworthy.

Anything IN the fossil record would reflect events DURING the Flood, or possibly sills formed between layers afterward. Of course I'm guessing but the point is that the evidence I have in mind shows that volcanism didn't occur during the Flood but at the end of it, after the whole geologic column was already in place. Evidence of it shouldn't be in the fossil record at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1761 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 12:46 AM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1913 by Percy, posted 04-15-2018 4:02 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1765 of 2887 (831106)
04-12-2018 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1763 by Pollux
04-12-2018 2:58 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith, you are wonderful!
What the early geologists concluded was a TRIUMPH for science over preconceived ideas. They thought one thing, but the evidence proved them wrong, so they changed their opinion. That is what we all should be prepared to do.

With human productions, yes, absolutely, but not with God's word.

And the problem with this change from preconceived ideas to supposed reality and genuine science is that the change wasn't to reality at all, it was just the acceptance of an illusion. When that change took place there was no proof of it at all, either, just a plausibility recognized only by imagination. That's what I keep trying to say. This is not science they changed to.

Why conclude that length of exposure explains the difference in amount of erosion between the wall and the hills? How about the hardness of the rock, the shape of the rock in the wall as resisting erosion compared to that in the hills? And you give no quantities anyway. And in the millions of years "science" now allots to erosion time the hills would have long since disappeared completely anyway.

ABE: It's kinda funny that I keep supposing a more rapid rate of erosion in the Grand Canyon than others here want to accept, and they all insist it was a lot slower. But Christian geologists thought the hills were eroding so rapidly they had to have been there a lot longer than the biblical time frame. Just depends on what people want to think doesn't it?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1763 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 2:58 AM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 1766 of 2887 (831108)
04-12-2018 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1762 by Faith
04-12-2018 2:40 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

I understand that. I just think it's a sad chapter in the history of science that they didn't recognize that the entire geologic column is evidence of the Flood.

You mean that they didnt lie and pretend that the geological column is evidence for the Flood ? Dont forget that your version of the geological column is largely made up and ignores significant evidence.

quote:

I can't figure out how that would dissuade them from the Flood

It showed that the Biblical timescale didnt allow enough time for the observed erosion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1762 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 2:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 11-13-2011


(2)
Message 1767 of 2887 (831109)
04-12-2018 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1747 by Faith
04-11-2018 7:01 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Around the world mainly in the oceans but also on land, there are chains of extinct volcanoes, being islands and seamounts in the oceans, which are formed as the tectonic plates pass over a magma hot spot. The Hawaiian -Emperor chain is the best known, with about 50 dated radiometrically. Their ages increase linearly as you move away from the hot spot south-east of Hawaii, and they correspond closely with the expected age for the rate of tectonic movement.
Other chains show the same pattern.

(Of course trying to produce these volcanoes during the madness of catastrophic plate tectonics during or after the Flood presents its own physical challenges.)

I see four possible conclusions from this :

1. This is very good confirmation of the accuracy of RMD
2. Some wonderful unknown mechanisms operate to precisely match change in decay rates and movement.
3. All the ones who did the dating conspired to cook the results.
4. Loki is in charge.

Which do you choose?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1747 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 7:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1768 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 3:34 AM Pollux has responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 1768 of 2887 (831110)
04-12-2018 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1767 by Pollux
04-12-2018 3:14 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Yes I am that much up on volcanism that I know how they are formed by plate movement.

On the four alternatives you offer I say "None of the above." I think the dating methods show consistency in relative dating but I have to suspect that the absolute dates are wrong.

I do want to thank you for being pleasant about this. Creationsts do eventually drive everybody crazy so it's nice to talk to someone who hasn't yet been driven to homicidal insanity.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1767 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 3:14 AM Pollux has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1769 by Tangle, posted 04-12-2018 4:21 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1770 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 6:56 AM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6680
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 1769 of 2887 (831111)
04-12-2018 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1768 by Faith
04-12-2018 3:34 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith writes:

I think the dating methods show consistency in relative dating but I have to suspect that the absolute dates are wrong.

It's a statistical impossibility to have consilience between dating methods but different 'absolute' dates. For this to be true several independent variables would need to be in error in different ways and yet converge on the same conclusion. And in any case we know the error range within each method which makes the calculation irrelevant.

Moreover, the range between science's billions of years and your 6,000 years is so far outside any possible error to render the calculation redundant.

You are avoiding looking at this area because you know it sinks everything you believe in.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1768 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 3:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 1770 of 2887 (831112)
04-12-2018 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1768 by Faith
04-12-2018 3:34 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I think the alternative you choose is really No 2, wonderful mechanisms. It seems you do not realise what is required to fit most tectonics and vulcanism to in or soon after the Flood. All that is required for the conventional explanation is for current physics and nuclear physics to be the same now as in the past.

The tectonic record shows the continents coming together and breaking up again repeatedly in the past, with what is part of one continent one time being part of another next. RMD of volcanics associated with this allows dates to be assigned to the various arrangements going back billions of years.
To have all this even in the 100 years after the Flood still means speeding up by a factor of at least 100,000,000. The associated quakes and volcanoes would mean that Noah would not be able to breathe or stand to plant his vineyard.

The speeding up of RA decay to allow the dates to fit in with a YEC paradigm has been admitted by the RATE study people to release enough heat to seriously heat the Earth, if not melt it. And if there were accelerated RA decay during the Flood, why did it affect the moon rocks and meteorites?

Then somewhere you have to fit in the evidence for many recurrent ice ages, not just the one that some YEC try to limit it to. They are shown by numerous ice, sea, and land cores which show consistent patterns of warming and cooling. Study of the direction of travel of ice sheets for the Permian glaciation in Africa and South America show that they were there BEFORE the continents separated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1768 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 3:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1771 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 8:29 AM Pollux has responded
 Message 1772 by jar, posted 04-12-2018 9:19 AM Pollux has responded

    
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