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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1708 of 2887 (831024)
04-11-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1704 by jar
04-11-2018 7:12 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
How did the Biblical Flood sort the plant fossils in the order found in reality?
Obviously, it's some mysterious property of water that we don't know about.
I think that pretty much explains everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1704 by jar, posted 04-11-2018 7:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1709 by jar, posted 04-11-2018 9:30 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1815 of 2887 (831200)
04-13-2018 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1813 by Faith
04-13-2018 8:57 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
According to the geo column/timescale charts, they are identical.
Are you saying that a stratum equals an era (according to science)?
No wonder you are so confused.
I really recommend a general geology course at your local community college. Just sit in and listen ...
These are things that you cannot teach yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1813 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 8:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1818 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 10:58 PM edge has replied
 Message 1820 by dwise1, posted 04-13-2018 11:09 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1816 of 2887 (831201)
04-13-2018 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1813 by Faith
04-13-2018 8:57 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Unknown factors, hydraulic mechanisms.
Why not call on known processes and mechanisms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1813 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 8:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1817 of 2887 (831202)
04-13-2018 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1809 by Faith
04-13-2018 7:18 PM


Re: Permian Age et al
Well, that is completely false. Christian theology requires that all parts of the Bible be understood in relation to all its other parts. All of it is truth, and all of it must be understood as working together, no part of it contradicting any other part. You cannot prove anything you like, all of it has to support all of it.
I guess you've never heard two Christians arguing about the Bible ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1809 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1821 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 11:12 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1826 of 2887 (831211)
04-14-2018 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1821 by Faith
04-13-2018 11:12 PM


Re: Permian Age et al
there are lots of Christians in name only.
And, as per the usual YEC, you can determine who they are, yes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1821 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 11:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1831 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 3:20 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1827 of 2887 (831212)
04-14-2018 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1818 by Faith
04-13-2018 10:58 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
It isn't that important, I'm judging from the diagrams I've seen and it's not even important enough to go back and get those exact either.
I see that it's not important to you, but words do have meaning and I'm not sure that you know the meanings.
The point is that eras are built on the rocks, however they happen to be built, and if you want to educate me on it then you are going to have to do it.
I don't even know what mean by 'built on the rocks'. For all I know you could be right, but your record of misinterpreting and miscommunicating make that extremely doubtful.
I'm pretty sure that you have no clue as to how the geological time scale was constructed.
I hardly ever go out at all, and then only to medical appointments, just the way it is.
I'm sorry to hear that, but reading YEC screed doesn't give you an iota of insight into geology. In fact, some would say that you cannot do geology without having spent time out in the field.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1818 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 10:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1832 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 3:32 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1863 of 2887 (831255)
04-14-2018 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1859 by Faith
04-14-2018 10:39 AM


Re: Permian Age et al
Bald assertion. I've given actual evidence against all this many times from various presentation of the geologic column. Not one tectonic or volcanic or erosive event in the whole stack of strata that supposedly represent hundreds of millions of years. The Grand Staircase cross section is enough by itself to show that.
It may be an assertion, but plenty of evidence has been provided on these very pages multiple times in the past. Your denial is to no effect.
For instance, you ignore the fact that the Great Unconformity shows signs of erosion in the form of gravel deposits, and differential erosion such as boulders and talus around the monadnocks of Shinumo Quatzite; all the while with no evidence for shearing as you so confidently assert.
You do not recognize the various compositions and relative ages of igneous rocks in the Colorado Plateau region; nor their relationship to cross-cutting faults and erosional surfaces.
And most egregiously, you ignore the fact the Grand Canyon equivalent rocks defined by regional mapping show abundant evidence of tectonism and erosion in the rest of the world while the Faith-designated strata of the Grand Canyon were being deposited.
Even your definition of 'strata' is convoluted beyond recognition.
We could go on and on, but it is to no avail. Blind, dogmatic ignorance is impervious to facts. All you have to do is deny.
All vastly exaggerated and not demonstrated.
Okay, then you explain the processes involved in creating an angular unconformity at numerous places within the geological record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1859 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 10:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1865 of 2887 (831257)
04-14-2018 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1854 by Faith
04-14-2018 10:20 AM


Re: Permian Age et al
Christianity does not evolve. We have it all down in writing and it has never changed. What a king does can't affect the unchangeable written tenets of the religion. If people start to live by the king's rules instead of the Bible's it's not Christianity.
I guess you never heard of the Reformation.
So, why are there so many Christian sects?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1854 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 10:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1866 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 11:31 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 1881 of 2887 (831282)
04-14-2018 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1750 by Faith
04-11-2018 7:10 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
In reading Percy's post, I see that I missed a few Faithisms.
When you said this:
how sedimentary strata make no sense in the timescale paradigm
It reminded me that in geology there is a definition that I learned many years ago. It is that the Devonian, for instance, can be a Period or a System.
A "Period" refers to a time span (in this case, the Devonian as it was originally described). A "System" refers to the rock record deposited during that Devonian time span.
There is no single Devonian stratigraphy. There are many, and the word System could refer to rocks of that age anywhere on the planet. In other words, the Navajo Sandstone is considered to be part of the Jurassic System deposited during the Jurassic time span, and the Old Red Sandstone is part of the Devonian System deposited during the Devonian Period.
I sometimes get the impression that Faith thinks each layer is equated with a certain Period. But actually that layer is part of a System that was deposited globally during the same time as the 'Devonian' (named for Devon) rocks in Great Britain. That System includes all kinds of rocks all over the world that include, but are not limited to, the Old Red Sandstone Formation.
In fact, a single layer or a 'Formation' (a sequence of related layers) can belong to more than one system.
As I have said, the rocks are just like a 'recording' of sedimentary layers deposited on the 'tape' of the geological timescale.
Well, I don't expect Faith to get this, but at least I tried to explain some of the embedded confusion of her posts.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1750 by Faith, posted 04-11-2018 7:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1882 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 6:06 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 1884 of 2887 (831285)
04-14-2018 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1882 by Faith
04-14-2018 6:06 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Please forgive me but I continue to have the same problem. (Do geology students just swallow all this without questions or objections by the way?)
Actually, my post was not meant to clear things up for you. It was more to explain to everyone else why you are so confused.
If there are "many" stratigraphies per time period, they still are all contained within the same rock layer or band of layers found around the world, right?
No.
Or however that should be said. Just different collections of sediment in different places, but all in the same band of rock or same level in the column, right? And all containing the same fossils.
They happen to contain similar fossils, yes. But they are not in the same band of rocks.
Why should there be a rock System associated with a particular time period anyway? Ever?
For convenience. It is often necessary to talk about rocks of the same age.
And one per time period -- it is only one because although there are different rocks in different places they all occur at the same physical level and all contain the same fossilized creatures, yes?
Not one layer.
Why should EVERY "time period" have such a sedimentary representative, a System, at all? Isn't there something a bit contra Nature about such an occurrence?
If sedimentation were continuous, yes. However, that is not what happened.
I understand that it would be hard to question something so utterly taken for granted, and which does in fact bear the label of the time period in all the representations of the geologic column, but I would think that someone might step back some time and ask why such a correspondence should exist at all, let alone so consistently.
Why wouldn't it?
Because you think so? These are all based on normal geological processes that we see going on today.
Why should there be a recognizable sedimentary System, set of layers or whatever, in any stack called the Geologic Column anywhere?
Because depositional environments change through time.
One rock System per time period, and no time period without one.
Except where there was no deposition or where it has been removed.
Is there a principle anywhere else in Nature that makes sense of this?
Make sense of your strawman? No.
But can you understand why this specificity doesn't really change my perspective?
I didn't expect it to change your perspective. My intent was to help others understand your confusion, since the conversation never really goes anywhere. I might add that, contrary to known processes that we see in the geological record, you essentially see all rocks deposited in one year and hence are the same age. That is the basic reason why you are so adamant against the mainstream reality.
They all occur at exactly the same level around the world, and they all contain the same fossils.
What level are you talking about, stratigraphic or structural level?
Isn't that how it was recognized in the first place that there is something systematic going on here? There is no time period without its rock System and no rock System without its time period.
Right, but the concepts are different. You seem to equate them.
Things are more complex that you think and geology is not something that you can teach yourself.
I can't see anything else anywhere in Nature that justifies such an idea.
I'm sorry it doesn't follow the logic that you prefer. But it works.
Yes here and there a particular rock System fails to show up , but the amazing thing is that it's just here and there while the rule is that each time period has its pet rock System all around the world.
I don't see the problem here.
Are you sure you mean this? That a sequence of particular sedimentary rocks can belong to both the Devonian and the Silurian perhaps, or the Triassic and the Jurassic perhaps? But then they'd have to contain different fossils wouldn't they? Is this what you are saying?
Let me be more general and say that, as Walther's law predicts, stratigraphic units are not restricted to a given time or Period. As transgression occurs, the age of a seashore deposit become younger as the shoreline moves across the continent.
Now this is not at all clear. Could you find a different analogy to make it clearer?
To you, I doubt it.
Look, I'm thinking this through honestly, I don't have anything "religious" in mind as I'm thinking it through, I'm thinking only of layers of rock around the world and time labels assocfiated with them.
This has been established by convention long before you came upon the scene.
I'm basing it all on conclusions I've come to about the physical situation over the last couple of decades. I'd really really appreciate it if even if you think me crazy or stupid or just wrong you'd allow that I'm honestly thinking about the physical world and raising honest issues.
Your thinking is inadequate. You ignore evidence and known processes. You prefer mysticism over science and learning. You strategy consists of denial and adherence to a religious myth.
I and others have enumerated your errors elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1882 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 6:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1885 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 7:12 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1886 of 2887 (831287)
04-14-2018 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1882 by Faith
04-14-2018 6:06 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
(dreaded double post)
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1882 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 6:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1887 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 7:21 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1895 of 2887 (831296)
04-14-2018 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1892 by Faith
04-14-2018 7:54 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
There wouldn't have been cities and towns and highway systems in former "eras" of course, but there must have been hills and valleys to present obstacles to hundreds of thousands pf square miles of straight flat sedimentary layers.
But gee, there weren't.
Amazing.
What's really amazing is that you can say that with a straight face. There are plenty of topographic obstacles and they have been shown to you, including the monadnocks in the Grand Canyon, or the Ancestral Rocky Mountains shown here:
How many do you need?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1892 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 7:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1903 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 11:10 PM edge has replied
 Message 1911 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 5:11 AM edge has replied
 Message 1923 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 11:59 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1896 of 2887 (831297)
04-14-2018 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1891 by Faith
04-14-2018 7:36 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
There is nothing "local" about the geological strata -- or rock Systems if you prefer -- of the geological column. They extend for hundreds of thousands of square miles, some more, a LOT more, some less, but they are never "local."
Please show us a definition wherein a 'stratum' cannot be local.
This is something that you have made up, Faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1891 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 7:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1899 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 10:38 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1897 of 2887 (831298)
04-14-2018 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1889 by Faith
04-14-2018 7:28 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
So why don't we see a similar flat straight layer of sediment extending across huge spans of geography now, and collecting all the creatures familiar in our current time period? Of course it would have to extend through cities and towns and highway systems and so on and so forth, collecting lots of those artifacts too. The absurdity and physical impossibility of flat straight layers defining time periods escapes you all. Too bad. I guess the cosmos is going to have to roll up like a scroll before you see it.
Well, we do see such things. For instance the Saharan erg is a continental deposit that, when the African plate subsides will be planed off and appear as a regional formation. The Brazilian shield with its flooded swamps will become one of the largest coal fields in the geological record. Florida and the Bahamas Banks will become a huge limestone formation. All in due time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1889 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 7:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1900 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 10:53 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1898 of 2887 (831299)
04-14-2018 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1885 by Faith
04-14-2018 7:12 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Ah well, so much for fair and honest debate. Nothing you said here makes any more sense than what I was already dealing with.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's how things are when you don't understand something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1885 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 7:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1901 by Faith, posted 04-14-2018 11:00 PM edge has replied

  
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