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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 1996 of 2887 (831435)
04-17-2018 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1991 by Faith
04-17-2018 2:33 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith writes:
If you can't show any actual relatedness of the fossils in the supposed order, the order remains a mere mental construct and not a physical reality.
That has been your answer for every example that has been raised.
BUT...
we have known principles of physical sorting that account for what is seen in the geology, the biology, the radiometric evidence, the isotope evidence, the physical positioning and that are observable and happening today.
This is the difference Faith.
We have the fossils and societies and geology and radiometric samples and isotope samples and the model, method, mechanism, process and procedures that explain the evidence.
We can show the relatedness and there are museums all over the world where the relatedness is shown.
All you have is the dogma of your Cult.
Young Earth is simply utter willful dishonesty.
Creationism is simply utter willful dishonesty.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1991 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 2:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1997 of 2887 (831436)
04-17-2018 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1819 by Faith
04-13-2018 11:06 PM


Re: Species!
Pollux hasn't replied to this, so I will.
Faith writes:
Faith, please use the word "species " correctly.
Perhaps the Phyllum is the Kind and that's what the creationist was talking about. For me to say what I mean may require that I NOT use the terms "correctly" according to your paradigm.
First, it is not a case of two different paradigms. It is a case of science representing knowledge and creationists misrepresenting religion as science.
Second, kind is not a scientific term, at least not within biology.
Third, species has a very clear definition for sexual organisms, which is what we're usually talking about. You cannot invent your own definition.
Being able to interbreed is a criterion for defining a species from the OE/Evo paradigm, which is meaningless when defining a Kind.
But you just said the opposite in your Message 1812:
Faith in Message 1812 writes:
"Kind" means species in the sense I'm using the term above. The words are synonymous,...
So in one message you say that kind and species are synonymous, then just a very few messages later you say that species is meaningless with regard to kind. Contradictory much?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1819 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 11:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1998 of 2887 (831437)
04-17-2018 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1821 by Faith
04-13-2018 11:12 PM


Re: Permian Age et al
Faith writes:
There are lots of Christians in name only.
That seems to describe you pretty well.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1821 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 11:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2001 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 8:16 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1999 of 2887 (831438)
04-17-2018 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1823 by Faith
04-13-2018 11:19 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith writes:
I not only have to learn the standard interpretation of everything...
You often do a pretty fair job understanding scientific terminology (mainly the labels for things, like "strata" and "intrusion", but not terms representing more complex concepts, like "Walther's Law"). Unfortunately you have a bad habit of inventing your own personal definitions for some terms, as you just said you'd do with species.
But even after all these years you understand very little of evolutionary and geological processes, even extremely simple concepts like that sediments being deposited today contribute to stratigraphic columns, or that mutations contribute to variation. Though such processes been explained again and again, the explanations never stick, and you reject them before ever understanding them.
...I have to be able to see how it contradicts the true history of the earth.
If you don't understand them or their supporting evidence then you can't assess how they are right or wrong. You're sort of reduced to calling them names like "illusion" and "paradigm".
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Fill out first paragraph so it's a bit more clear - it became two paragraphs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1823 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 11:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2000 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 7:56 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2000 of 2887 (831442)
04-17-2018 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1999 by Percy
04-17-2018 6:18 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Obviously you don't appreciate the problems involved in a paradigm clash for the underdog paradigm. Definitional problems are a huge problem because facts don't have the same interpretation in the different paradigms.
YEC's biological model has separate created Kinds that have a lot of variation built into the genome but can't change beyond the genome. That creates all kinds of semantic and definitional problems in relation to the ToE model of evolution from Species to Species.
YEC also views the Earth as only 6000 years old, and explaining all the facts that standard Geology interprets in terms of millions and billions of years sometimes requires different terminology.
There is no way to use all the ToE and OE terminology to discuss YEC principles. You don't recognize that the terms you use are interpretive, you think they are simply factual but you are wrong and that creates confusion and havoc for anybody defending YEC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1999 by Percy, posted 04-17-2018 6:18 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2017 by PaulK, posted 04-18-2018 12:13 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 2083 by Percy, posted 04-21-2018 4:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2001 of 2887 (831443)
04-17-2018 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1998 by Percy
04-17-2018 6:08 PM


Re: Permian Age et al
It's a matter of doctrine as I meant it. Like a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness claiming to be a Christian. Their doctrine is wrong according to traditional historical Christian theology.
If you just want to call me a bad Christian I will agree with you about that, but probably not about some of your criteria.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1998 by Percy, posted 04-17-2018 6:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2085 by Percy, posted 04-21-2018 4:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2002 of 2887 (831444)
04-17-2018 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1987 by Tangle
04-17-2018 1:55 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
There is static order, like objects arranged in a row according to size, which is the kind the fossil order is. But you think the fossil order implies something dynamic as well, evolution from one form of life to another over time. There is little argument with the first kind of order; it's clear that fossils are found in a predictable order from layer to layer, using the term "order" in the static sense, although there isn't any obvious characteristic like size that links them, or complexity or whatever you think is implied. But when it comes to the interpretation of evolution from life form to life form over time that is not proven and nobody here is saying anything that proves it exists at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1987 by Tangle, posted 04-17-2018 1:55 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2003 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-17-2018 8:44 PM Faith has replied
 Message 2018 by PaulK, posted 04-18-2018 12:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 2021 by Tangle, posted 04-18-2018 3:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 2003 of 2887 (831445)
04-17-2018 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2002 by Faith
04-17-2018 8:20 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith writes:
it's clear that fossils are found in a predictable order from layer to layer,
You have used this phrase several times recently.
What do you mean by predictable? Who or what is predicting this order?
What features of fossils are ordered using your predictable ordering?
Faith writes:
although there isn't any obvious characteristic like size that links them, or complexity or whatever you think is implied.
Ok, what are you talking about being predictably ordered?
By the way, I recently read a really informative book about Trilobites, but you wouldn't enjoy it.
Enjoy

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2002 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 8:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2004 by dwise1, posted 04-17-2018 9:04 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 2005 by herebedragons, posted 04-17-2018 9:26 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 2006 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 9:38 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2004 of 2887 (831446)
04-17-2018 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2003 by Tanypteryx
04-17-2018 8:44 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Tanypteryx to Faith's Message 2002:
What features of fossils are ordered using your predictable ordering?
Faith already told you that in the message you're replying to:
Faith writes:
There is static order, like objects arranged in a row according to size, which is the kind the fossil order is.
So she is stating that they are ordered by size. That would be the expected result of hydrodynamic sorting. For example, here is part of my notes on that creationist movie on Netflix, "Is Genesis History?" (starts with the timemark into the movie):
quote:
0:50 -- Arthur Chadwick, paleontologist
interviewed at a dig of the Lance Formation
he described a one-meter thick bone bed
from his description of it, the burial had to have been a single event
because the bones are sorted as we would expect from hydrodynamic sorting
with large bones to the bottom and small bones to the top
that also means that the bones must have already become disarticulated,
meaning that the soft tissue had to have already rotted away

So two of the basic questions for Faith would be (in which "you" and "your" refer to Faith):
  1. Which way is up? In your fossils having been sorted by the flood according to size, are the large ones found consistently at the bottom and the small ones at the top? Or is it the other way around?
  2. Is that really the order that we do actually find, sorting by size? What are your sources so that we can see for ourselves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2003 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-17-2018 8:44 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2007 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 9:41 PM dwise1 has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 2005 of 2887 (831447)
04-17-2018 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2003 by Tanypteryx
04-17-2018 8:44 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
What features of fossils are ordered using your predictable ordering?
Fossils are predictably ordered according to random and inexplicable physical features depending on the specific circumstances and the currently unknown properties of water acting through an indescribable sequence of improbable events.
Duh...
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2003 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-17-2018 8:44 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2006 of 2887 (831448)
04-17-2018 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2003 by Tanypteryx
04-17-2018 8:44 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
All I meant about predictable order is that the same fossils are found in the same layer everywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2003 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-17-2018 8:44 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2014 by Coragyps, posted 04-17-2018 10:12 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 2020 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-18-2018 1:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2007 of 2887 (831449)
04-17-2018 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2004 by dwise1
04-17-2018 9:04 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Arrangement according to size -- like jars on a shelf arranged from large to small, or shirts on a rack from large to small -- was meant to be an example of a static order, shape would be another, I suppose, or having two, four, six, eight eyeballs in a series could be another. The fossil order supposedly reflects the Linnaean morphological classification.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2004 by dwise1, posted 04-17-2018 9:04 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2008 by jar, posted 04-17-2018 9:48 PM Faith has replied
 Message 2010 by dwise1, posted 04-17-2018 10:04 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 2008 of 2887 (831450)
04-17-2018 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2007 by Faith
04-17-2018 9:41 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith writes:
The fossil order supposedly reflects the Linnaean morphological classification.
And what is the model, method, mechanism, process, procedure for a flood to sort objects to reflect the Linnaean morphological classification?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2007 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 9:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2009 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 10:00 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2009 of 2887 (831451)
04-17-2018 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2008 by jar
04-17-2018 9:48 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I doubt the fossil order reflects much of the Linnaean system in reality. I do keep invoking some unknown principle of sorting by the Flood because I don't think we can know what it is, though I think it certainly at least had to involve marine creatures at the lower levels, progressing up to land animals on the higher levels.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2008 by jar, posted 04-17-2018 9:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2012 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2018 10:06 PM Faith has replied
 Message 2022 by jar, posted 04-18-2018 6:18 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 2023 by JonF, posted 04-18-2018 8:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(3)
Message 2010 of 2887 (831452)
04-17-2018 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2007 by Faith
04-17-2018 9:41 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
You need to take much more care to make your posts very clear. As it is, it looks like you're weasel-wording all the time. IOW, if you made yourself more understandable, you wouldn't have to complain so much about being misunderstood. Or would that be counter-productive for your goals here?
So just how would your magic flood sort by number of eyeballs? Or by any other trait? Since you don't know how water works, nor physics, nor geological processes, and you refuse to try to learn, you end up having nothing. How could you ever expect yourself to replace that big nothing with a something? Why would you expect to be able to convince anybody by presenting nothing but your big nothing, the product of your willful and self-imposed ignorance?
We're not trying to make you give up, but rather we're trying to get you to stop wasting your time in dead-ends. And to get you to stop completely discrediting your own religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2007 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 9:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2011 by Faith, posted 04-17-2018 10:06 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 2015 by Capt Stormfield, posted 04-17-2018 10:36 PM dwise1 has replied

  
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