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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Which is still not a good way to understand it. Even if the preacher sticks to the text rather than adding interpretations to it. It’s too episodic and too spread out.
quote: Given the abysmal quality of some of the commentaries quoted here that is not obviously a good thing. And even the less bad ones are liable to be affected by doctrinal commitments.
quote: When it can take weeks to go through a few verses ?
quote: I can see that going very badly - at least in terms of generating real understanding. You need to understand that the Bible is not a coherent text. You get a lot of cherry-picking, misinterpretation and harmonisations that ignore problems. Especially if you are an inerrantist.
quote: But they were the things that preachers typically do ignore. How many tell you about the contradictions, for one ?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Instead of pontificating from your position of knowing nothing, why don't you find out how it works. Pick a topic or a Bible book and go listen through a series of preachings on it at Sermon Audio.
In the process of preaching through a book many other passages from other parts of the Bible are also quoted and discussed as they apply to the same issues under discussion. Yes you do learn a lot of Bible this way. But your only exposure to the Bible in church isn't just the sermon, if good hymns are chosen they also teach the Bible, and there are Bible study classes and all sorts of other sources of knowledge. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But they were the things that preachers typically do ignore. How many tell you about the contradictions, for one ? Lots of preachers discuss the supposed contradictions. ABE: Here's a page of sermons on the topic of Contradictions at Sermon Audio. Not all are about supposed contradictions within the Bible but obviously some are. I haven't listened to any of them, I'm just showing you that it's not an ignored topic. If I were to pick one to listen to first I'd pick R. C. Sproul or James White. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: But I do know that listening for a relatively short time every Sunday is slow and episodic. I do know that it doesn’t take weeks worth of sermons to simply read a few verses. I do know that commentaries are biased and unreliable. And that’s the good ones. Because reading is better and faster than listening, point me to a transcript of one of your sermons and I’ll read it. I simply don’t want to spend hours listening to recordings which aren’t likely to be of any value to me anyway.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: And I bet they try to cover them up, too. And that’s my point. Real understanding is sacrificed on the altar of doctrine.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And I bet they try to cover them up, too. And that’s my point. Real understanding is sacrificed on the altar of doctrine. They would most likely show how they aren't contradictions. I added an edit to Message 48 to refer you to Sermon Audio for talks on the subject.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I’ve read enough apologetics to know how that goes. There are real contradictions. Anyone who denies that opposes understanding of the Bible (but then we already know that you oppose that)
quote: Have you got transcripts? That IS what I asked for.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sometimes a sermon has a transcript attached to it, and there are also books on the subject.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I’ll look but if I don’t see them I’m not going to waste time on it.
I did watch a video of one of Sproul’s talks and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Message 66
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Sometimes a sermon has a transcript attached to it, and there are also books on the subject. Perhaps Paul can pick a controversy, and you can pick your favorite sermon or source that explains why the controversy does not involve a contradiction. That would advance the discussion beyond the yes it does/no it does not stage. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
The situation on transcripts seems to be that there are a lot of them but it is very hard to find one that would be relevant.
However, I have looked for Sproul’s views. Apparently he holds the view that only strict logical contradictions count - which means that he can make up almost any nonsense he likes to explain them. He could explain the two accounts of Judas’ death by saying that Judas came back to life after the events described in Acts and then did as Matthew says (I am not saying that he did that - only that he could have, and that isn’t even the worst he could do). Choosing such an extreme standard at the least indicates an awareness that there is a real problem, that can’t be easily addressed. It’s an implicit admission that there are good reasons to doubt Biblical inerrancy just from disagreements in the text.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've been looking through the Sermon Audio list and haven't found one I particularly like yet. I would listen to unknowns myself but wouldn't want to recommend them to others unless I became more familiar with them. There's one preacher there who has a series on the contradictions in the Bible I may listen to but haven't yet, too much else on my mind.
The Judas death stories are difficult but with most such questions of fact it's usually a matter of one writer having part of the story and the other writer a different part. Living people don't just fall down in a field and burst open, so that probably happened after Judas was already dead and his body bloated and decayed, probably when his body fell from whatever he hanged himself on. Who bought the field is a question too, but it was bought with Judas' money so that even if the priests made the literal transaction one could say Judas bought it. Or Judas bought it before dying there and the priests made use of it for a burial ground later. Who knows. But it's really not terribly important and probably not even really a contradiction if we had all the details. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I should point out that I only provided that one as an example of what the demand for a strict logical contradiction allows. And I note that you didn’t address that point.
Anyway, would you say that the solution to the two stories of Judas’ death is that Peter provided a distorted account to malign Judas? It’s certainly possible. And you need some explanation for the omissions which erase every sign of remorse in Matthew’s version
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I probably wouldn't agree with Sproul about that since you want a comment, and I've found I don't agree with him about other things. But I haven't had time to go through the list and find one I would agree with.
I'm not interested enough in the Judas story to try to figure out the details. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I started out by picking a sermon by Dr.Dan Olinger titled Absence of Contradiction, Part 1.
He picks a list from infidels.org, taken primarily from the KJV, and found 69 contradictions with which to provide a basis for this particular sermon. I expect some bias from this preacher, but am giving him a fair listen. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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