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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2693 of 2887 (832466)
05-04-2018 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2691 by JonF
05-04-2018 8:57 AM


Re: Limestones are very much mostly of biochemical precipitate origin
Probably. But then they should be the topic and not the fairy tale, since, you know, they are facts and the fairy tale isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2691 by JonF, posted 05-04-2018 8:57 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2696 of 2887 (832470)
05-04-2018 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2694 by Percy
05-04-2018 9:41 AM


Re: Why would cultural Christians reject evidence if it existed?
Nothing in the dstant past can be replicated or tested. My complaint about evo/geo interpretations is that they are regarded as fact despite this handicap, though based completely on pure imagination from what, bits of flotsam found in the flat slabs of layered sedimentary rocks.
Of course some things can be known from the past, like the tomb, but I'm talking about THEORY, INTERPRETATION, not just facts. All that stuff about "landscapes" such as a beach or a coastline environment and that sort of thing constructed entirely out of bits found in a rock and absolutely nothing else. And then I try to point out that you couldn't have any such landscapes where the rocks now are because they cover way too much territory and are nothing but flat sedimentary rocks which couldn't have formed from a landscape anyway, but the idea is so ingrained despite its impossibility nobody will ever see what's wrong with it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2694 by Percy, posted 05-04-2018 9:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2698 by JonF, posted 05-04-2018 10:15 AM Faith has replied
 Message 2700 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2018 11:04 AM Faith has replied
 Message 2797 by Percy, posted 05-05-2018 9:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2697 of 2887 (832472)
05-04-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 2694 by Percy
05-04-2018 9:41 AM


Re: Why would cultural Christians reject evidence if it existed?
Perhaps you heard about the recent arrest of the Golden State Killer based upon DNA evidence from over 30 years ago. There is no statute of limitations on the age of evidence. Ancient evidence is how we know about ancient civilizations, for instance this Canaanite tomb
DNA is very solid evidence, but bits and pieces of stuff found in a rock evoke imaginary landscapes to the Evo/Old Earth paradigm-saturated mind that are unprovable and in fact impossible and actually falsify the whole paradigm. And DNA couldn't tell you about any of that anyway. Neither could radiometric dating.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2699 of 2887 (832474)
05-04-2018 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2698 by JonF
05-04-2018 10:15 AM


Re: Why would cultural Christians reject evidence if it existed?
You might try once. Or refute the usual straw man for the millionth time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2698 by JonF, posted 05-04-2018 10:15 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2703 of 2887 (832485)
05-04-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2700 by NoNukes
05-04-2018 11:04 AM


Re: Why would cultural Christians reject evidence if it existed?
How do you test, replicate or in any way validate the idea that time periods as indicated in the rocks actually existed as landscapes with living things populating them? All you have is the theory or imaginative construct and no way whatever to prove it. Besides which as I've pointed out the rock itself makes it impossible, which you all flat out deny. How can you prove that your fields or that grooved Oceanside bench could ever become a rock in the geo column?
How do you test, replicate, or validate the whole evolutionary theory that any given animal descended from any other? That mammals descended from reptiles for instance? You cannot prove that no matter how much circumstantial stuff you amass, and there will always be the possibility of some other way of interpreting it, and in any case the changes that would have to be made are astronomically impossible..
You hold to these theories because there is no way to actively prove or disprove them despite their impossibility.
.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2700 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2018 11:04 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2704 by JonF, posted 05-04-2018 1:33 PM Faith has replied
 Message 2707 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2018 3:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 2805 by Percy, posted 05-06-2018 10:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2705 of 2887 (832491)
05-04-2018 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2704 by JonF
05-04-2018 1:33 PM


Re: Why would cultural Christians reject evidence if it existed?
Boy was that a gobbledygook of an answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2704 by JonF, posted 05-04-2018 1:33 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2710 of 2887 (832501)
05-04-2018 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2655 by ringo
05-03-2018 11:54 AM


Re: no supergenome
So less junk DNA then, more junk DNA now. More functioning genes then, less functioning genes now. How is that not a change?
And why didn't the trilobites survive the Flood?
Yes that is a change, but it's a normal change due to microevolution, which would produce junk DNA over many generations. I thought we were talking about a structural difference in the genome itself, from a supergenome lilke one with polyploidy or something like that, to today's familiar structure by which traits are governed by genes, maybe several but still fewer than on the ark. But yes if you want to talk about the effects of evolution on the genome, today's is different in that respect. Since a tiny percentage of all living things still living since the Flood, there is also with just a tiny percentage of the genetic diversity left for each creature, and yet it was enough at the time of the Flood to produce all the variations of each Kind we see today. I think this ought to be intuitively obvious but I suppose I need to find clearer ways of explaining it.
I've wondered myself why all the trilobites died out. But I did see somewhere that there is a land-adapted species of trilobite living today.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 2655 by ringo, posted 05-03-2018 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2713 by NoNukes, posted 05-04-2018 6:47 PM Faith has replied
 Message 2759 by ringo, posted 05-05-2018 11:44 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2711 of 2887 (832503)
05-04-2018 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2709 by Percy
05-04-2018 3:55 PM


Re: Some points I felt like answering
I didn't know the size variation was that great. That's a variation of 350. Faith would no doubt cite dogs as having a large size variation, and they do. But calculating it out by height, the Chihuahua can be as small as around 4 inches tall, while the Great Dane is around 40 inches tall, a variation of a mere 10.
You are right I would point to the dog species Kind since they vary greatly in size and are all still dogs. The trilobites had a lot more genetic diversity to play with than today's dogs do, but dogs nevertheless have enormous genetic diversity compared to other species today, although they went through the bottleneck of the Flood and the trilobites are all pre-Flood with all or at least most of their original genetic diversity available.
Yes this is my own theory of course, that I've been arguing for the last decade or so. I don't know if it would ever be possible to persuade anyone here of it but it seems to me to hold together very well; it's certainly consistent. If there are better ways to argue for it I hope I run across them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2709 by Percy, posted 05-04-2018 3:55 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2712 of 2887 (832504)
05-04-2018 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2708 by Percy
05-04-2018 3:35 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
I certainly have no problem with even extreme erosion of cliffs, but I can't regard some sand on top of tilted and apparently deeply buried siltstone layers as an angular unconformity, just as there is no way that I can see how any current landscape could ever become a slab of rock such as we see in the geo/strat columns. I understand I'm probably not going to be able to persuade anyone of this, though I'll keep trying anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2708 by Percy, posted 05-04-2018 3:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2722 by edge, posted 05-04-2018 9:50 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2714 of 2887 (832510)
05-04-2018 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2707 by NoNukes
05-04-2018 3:29 PM


Re: Why would cultural Christians reject evidence if it existed?
How do you test, replicate or in any way validate the idea that time periods as indicated in the rocks actually existed as landscapes with living things populating them?
In the face of the response I gave previously, your answer is idiotic. The living things left behind traces which we can observe. Those traces have been discussed here numerous times. I don't expect that you would agree with the conclusions that have been reached. But I would expect that you were at least familiar with the evidence by now.
How are the traces of those living things in any way evidence of the notion that they lived in a particular time period? That's the problem. Yes there are specific fossils in specific layers but that proves nothing about time periods. It's such an ingrained assumption, however, it's apparently impossible to see how it's a theory and remains a theory without any way to test or prove it.
You also can't figure out what I'm trying to do, but since what I'm trying to do is so far from the mainstream assumptions that's understandable, if frustrating and annoying to be constantly accused of lying.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2715 of 2887 (832511)
05-04-2018 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2713 by NoNukes
05-04-2018 6:47 PM


Re: no supergenome
Extra alleles are the result of mutations that are mostly deleterious, and yes I am talking about general principles.
Those many "alleles" which are really just mutations, most of which are deleterious, are also mostly on their way to becoming junk DNA for that reason, which is therefore actually a reduction in genetic diversity rather than an increase . No good thing for any species.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2719 of 2887 (832517)
05-04-2018 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2716 by Rrhain
05-04-2018 7:48 PM


Re: Why would cultural Christians reject evidence if it existed?
That's how we know that the fossils we see in the strata lived at the time the strata was formed: The only way they could get into those layers is to be there at the time of the layer.
But there's a big big problem here. Perhaps I needed to be more specific but the main problem is that you can't prove the time period itself, meaning prove that there ever was a time on the earth when certain plants and animals lived. You are assuming the time period, assuming that a particular layer of rock really does represent that time period, but that can't be proved any more than the animals in it can be proved to have lived at any given time. It's really the same problem. You can claim the rock is some particular age, but not that it represents a landscape with creatures in it.
In order for organisms from, say, the Paleogene to show up in, say, the Permian, or the other way around, you're going to have to disturb all the layers in between in order to move them.
But that isn't the problem I had in mind. In my frame of reference the rocks are just rocks, not time periods such as Paleogene or Permian or whatnot.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2720 of 2887 (832518)
05-04-2018 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2717 by Rrhain
05-04-2018 8:01 PM


Re: no supergenome
Yes most are neutral, sorry, but others are deleterious and it is well kinown that beneficial mutations are very very rare. So the neutral mutations don't change the phenotype, but they do change the sequence of the gene which seems to me to be a destructive effect in itself. It's not needed, it's not useful.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2723 of 2887 (832521)
05-04-2018 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2718 by Percy
05-04-2018 9:06 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Yes, the amount of salt is something I already mentioned. Not even enough to cause the sagging.
Again I'll need confirmation from real geologists, but I think the salt layers lying between limestone layers may represent warm shallow seas that receded/evaporated, and that the salt layers between shale layers may represent coastal areas that receded/evaporated.
You are always credulously treating the evogeo paradigm interpretation as unassailable fact and making my eyes roll out onto the floor. This is unprovable nonsense, and it ends any motivation I might have to answer you in spite of all the other reasons I have to ignore you.

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 Message 2718 by Percy, posted 05-04-2018 9:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2724 of 2887 (832522)
05-04-2018 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2722 by edge
05-04-2018 9:50 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Sand over the tilted siltstones would not form an angular unconformity, it would just bury the siltstones.
I guess you think you explained how that grooved landscape could become a slab of rock but it doesn't explain that at all, it's just eyeball-rolling mystification.
You really don't seem to know that what you like to call "reality" is just an unprovable and really quite nonsensical impossible interpretation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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