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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2776 of 2887 (832581)
05-05-2018 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2659 by Faith
05-03-2018 11:57 AM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Faith writes:
Maybe I have low standards,...
Scientifically it isn't that you have low standards but that you seem to have no sense of how the real world actually works. Time after time you propose cockamamie ideas for which you then dig in your heels with absurd defenses.
...or maybe I'm just up against a hidebound bunch of anti-creationists.
While I'd like to think that the people at EvC are special, when I visit other websites that also host this debate I am as much struck by their knowledge, insight and ability to weave facts and information into effective arguments as I am by the people here. Those who understand and value science, both as knowledge and as a systematic way of understanding the world, are likely the same the world over.
You're not going to find science minded people anywhere who are going to forgo scientific knowledge on the say so of someone like yourself who does so much to discredit by her behavior and by the lack of quality and integrity in her arguments both herself and her religion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2659 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 11:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2778 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 1:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2777 of 2887 (832582)
05-05-2018 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2769 by Percy
05-05-2018 1:01 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Percy, as I've made clear many times, I reject YOUR posts because of your attitude toward me. I'm not going to spend time on them for that reason, unless something you say is something I feel like answering. If it means I don't get my argument developed more I'm willing to pass up the opportunity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2769 by Percy, posted 05-05-2018 1:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2779 by JonF, posted 05-05-2018 1:51 PM Faith has replied
 Message 2847 by Percy, posted 05-08-2018 9:04 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2778 of 2887 (832583)
05-05-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2776 by Percy
05-05-2018 1:28 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Keep it up and I'll keep on ignoring you. YOUR behavior should have gotten you suspended many times over by now, but you are so self-righteous about it you don't even see your own egregious violation of your own rules. The way I see it is that I am a lone individual who is at the mercy of a punitive autocratic madman.
What I get out of being here is being able to work through some of my own views. I don't much care any more whether I convince anyone here or not.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2776 by Percy, posted 05-05-2018 1:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2850 by Percy, posted 05-08-2018 9:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 2779 of 2887 (832584)
05-05-2018 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2777 by Faith
05-05-2018 1:41 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
I notice you didn't mention truth or reality.
They don't interest you.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2777 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 1:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2780 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 1:54 PM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2780 of 2887 (832585)
05-05-2018 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2779 by JonF
05-05-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
You can't justify personal attacks on the basis of "truth," that's insane and evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2779 by JonF, posted 05-05-2018 1:51 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2783 by JonF, posted 05-05-2018 2:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2781 of 2887 (832586)
05-05-2018 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2642 by Faith
05-03-2018 9:12 AM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Incredulity is not an argument. What is the rationale behind your incredulity? What are you imagining prevents the erosion of rock by waves, or the deposition of sand upon a beach?
As for the diagram I did comment on it...
Where?
...finally after finally getting that it's the deep areas of "erosion" I was supposed to notice.
Here's the diagram again. I was not calling attention to "deep areas of erosion." You had complained about a lack of examples of "lumpy and irregular" strata, so Edge provided one. The strata are labeled. I hope you were looking at the contact between the Parma Sandstone and the Bayport Limestone, because that's what I called attention to in my message:
I believe the irregular topography of the contact is due to a river or stream, though I don't think I've had confirmation of that yet from Edge or Moose. That is of course erosion, but we've always said that flowing water cuts channels into landscapes. Otherwise erosion tends to level landscapes.
At first it looked like my own diagram of how strata should look if there ever was erosion on the surface, but more attention to it convinced me that those sunken areas are more likely the effect of the many limestone type rocks and the salt in the layers, both being soluble and affecting layers after they were laid down.
Which "sunken area" are you looking at?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2642 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 9:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2782 of 2887 (832587)
05-05-2018 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2760 by Faith
05-05-2018 12:00 PM


Re: the strata again
Faith writes:
Oh well, this is futile. You seem to think "earth" could become a sedimentary rock.
Jesus Christ Faith, it's called the ROCK CYCLE ffs! How long have you pretended to know about geology yet don't understand the first friggin' thing about it? I mean, really this is just sodding silly.
quote:
Over time, soil layers are buried by new layers of sediment and eventually lithify to form sedimentary rock. The rock cycle continues as the sedimentary rocks are again brought in contact with the surface to weather and transform into new soil and other sedimentary rocks, or continue to be covered with newer sediments until they are buried deep in the crust where they may transform into new metamorphic or igneous rocks. The rock cycle is far slower in some places than it is in others, but it will not end as long as Earth is geologically active and has an atmosphere.
https://www.hunker.com/...-does-soil-fit-into-the-rock-cycle

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2760 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 12:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 2783 of 2887 (832589)
05-05-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2780 by Faith
05-05-2018 1:54 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
I'm not trying to justify anything. Just pointing out your significant omission.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2780 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 1:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2784 of 2887 (832591)
05-05-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2667 by Faith
05-03-2018 12:11 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Faith writes:
But nothing to say to support your disagreement.
Nor did ringo have anything to say to support the remark I disagreed with.
On this point the ball is in your court.
In fact, there are a ton of balls in your court. You've responded to 54.5% of the messages to you in this thread, and because so many of them were either content free (like this one) or too short to say anything (like this one) or didn't address any of the points in the discussion (like this one) or say anything remotely on-topic (like this one), I bet the actual number is closer to 40%. Doing a great job there, champ.
The reality is that you're playing the game you always play, engaging in behavior that swings discussion away from the topic and into what you do best, sling insults at people and treat them in demeaning and hurtful ways.
I daily become more and more amazed at your similarity to our president with his loose association with truth, weak command of facts, constant self-praise, proclivity for abusing others while displaying a fragile ego, and insistence on doing things his way no matter how obviously wrongheaded.
Why not play things straight and honest and just post about the topic?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2667 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2785 of 2887 (832592)
05-05-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2668 by Faith
05-03-2018 12:13 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Faith writes:
Keep up the silly one liners, ringo, I can answer you one for one.
No one has any doubt that you can, and will, and topic be damned. After all, when you can't muster anything of substance for your position then what is left but to engage in distraction? I guess instigating dustups feels much safer for you than learning any geology that might cast doubt on your religion.
My God, I'm further behind this afternoon than I was this morning.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2668 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 12:13 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2787 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2018 4:03 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2789 by herebedragons, posted 05-05-2018 4:11 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 2786 of 2887 (832593)
05-05-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2760 by Faith
05-05-2018 12:00 PM


Re: the strata again
"Earth" can't become a sedimentary rock; "soil" can't become a sedimentary rock.
Soil is 50% water and air, so compaction eliminates 50% of the volume of the soil mass. The remaining mass is about 90 - 95% sediments and <10% organic matter. Organic matter leaches from the soil as water percolates through, leaving just the sediment.
Read any actual description of a sedimentary layer and you will see that the sediment is a mixture of different types of sediments. Layers of pure sediment are rare (Coconino sandstone is one of those exceptions).
Paleosols are lithified soils that have retained their soil-like characteristics - the organics have not completely decomposed and leached out. They often are recognized by containing intact root systems. Paleosols are rocks, albeit not well compacted. Interpreting them as being transported intact is simply avoiding the issue, not providing a reasonable explanation.
Nothing that flat exists on the earth's surface normally, and no single-sediment either.
We have shown you "flat" on the earth's surface.
Layers are not made up of "single-sediments" but of mixtures of sediment types. The layers are named and described based on predominant sediments. Look up some actual geological description of layers, you'll see this to be true.
The surface of the earth is variegated in many ways, the strata are amazingly flat and uniform in character.
We have shown you "variegated in many ways" within the geological record, but you dismiss those features as having to have been produced by water running between the layers. There is no reason to think that other than maintaining the idea that the strata are "flat and uniform." Channels and relief cut into the layers means they are "variegated in many ways."
At some point in the "time period" the rocks that supposedly represent it had to have covered the whole area they now cover within the stack of strata. When that happened nothing could live there. Even if it was only a short period in the millions of years everything would have to die. if it was a wet sediment nothing could live there, and when it became rock nothing could live there, but the point is it HAS to become exposed sediment or rock to become a layer in the geo/stratigraphic column.
It is honestly impossible to figure out what you are imagining here and why you can't understand the explanations we have given. You depiction of these "problems" make no sense and I just cannot figure out why you think it happens in this way.
The expectations for what you think should have happened during the formation of the geological column is more like what I would expect from a flood type situation. So it is hard to understand why you think slow deposition over long periods of time should work the way you describe. It seems totally backwards and is difficult to understand what you are envisioning.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2760 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 12:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2787 of 2887 (832594)
05-05-2018 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2785 by Percy
05-05-2018 3:55 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
My God, I'm further behind this afternoon than I was this morning.
Percy, you are doing an admirable job of keeping up. I intend to make it a bit easier for you. Since I don't have any observations that other folks don't have, and because of my opinion that Faith 'jumped the shark' weeks ago, I won't be provoking any more responses. This topic is well covered by the other, somewhat more patient posters.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2785 by Percy, posted 05-05-2018 3:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 2788 of 2887 (832595)
05-05-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2758 by Tangle
05-05-2018 10:27 AM


Re: Why archaeologists have to dig
Have you never wondered why archaeologists have to dig? Their sites are even called digs. It's because everything on the land gets buried with time.
And not just on the land. Faith, you have to vacuum and dust your living quarters I presume. That is the reason that given a few hundred to a few thousand years Native American sites have a below-ground component.
Deny it all you like, but I have excavated probably over 100 sites in my career, and dated a good many of those. I have seen sites in excess of 26 feet deep. Some of that is material deposited by Native Americans, but some is natural--and we can tell the difference easily!
So, Faith, you are wrong again.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2758 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2018 10:27 AM Tangle has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 2789 of 2887 (832596)
05-05-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2785 by Percy
05-05-2018 3:55 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
My God, I'm further behind this afternoon than I was this morning.
Yea, I saw a message the other day that I wanted to reply to but now I can't find it - it must be buried pretty deep.
There's probably a lot of the messages in the last couple days that can be ignored or at least not responded to. These discussions always seem to devolve into "1001 things Faith is wrong about." It's hard enough to keep up with just a few.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2785 by Percy, posted 05-05-2018 3:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2796 by edge, posted 05-05-2018 8:52 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2790 of 2887 (832597)
05-05-2018 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2677 by Faith
05-03-2018 3:42 PM


Re: Ancient beaches and seas, no
Faith writes:
I see no need to answer that pack of lies.
JonF told a pack of lies? Well, then let's expose him for the liar that he is. I'll start quoting what he said in Message 2672:
JonF in Message 2672 writes:
You're confusing evidence and interpretation again.
Hmmm, this can't be one of the lies, since you were obviously confusing evidence and interpretation when you said, "Status quo interpretation has no real evidence." In science evidence gets interpreted. It's your approach that has interpretation seeking evidence.
The entire Earth and every detail is evidence.
Hmmm, this can't be one of the lies either, since the Earth really is the evidence of geology.
Your quarrel should be with the mainstream interpretation.
And this can't be one of the lies either, since it's the geological interpretation you take issue with.
But you are incapable of comprehending or discussing that interpretation.
This doesn't seem like a lie either, since your great reluctance to address so much data and reasoning or to respond to so many posts combined with your inability to comprehend so much of what is said or know much of what you're talking about does seem to make it a reasonable conclusion that you're incapable of comprehending or discussing that material.
All you have is kindergarten name calling.
And this isn't a lie either, since you do seem to have a strong proclivity for juvenile behavior.
So it turns out that JonF didn't tell a single lie, which would make you a...liar.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2677 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 3:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
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