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Author Topic:   An attempt to let Flood supporters explain how things were created
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 70 (832159)
04-30-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
04-30-2018 9:39 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
jar writes:
Any conventional explanation is pretty much irrelevant to this thread. The point is
How do the FLUD do it?"
Browsing other threads, I can see faiths position summerized as follows:
Faith,in a montage writes:
My views are based on observation of the physical world, including the view that there was no Jurassic time period or any other time period. The physical realities deducible from the the Geological Column say so...(...)Dating is all you have though, and it will eventually be shown to be full of error. Meanwhile the REASONABLE evidence is in favor of the Young Earth. The Geological Timescale with its time periods pretending that anything could have lived on a sea of wet sediment, or that evolution needs millions of years to produce a simple trilobite variation, is scientifically preposterous and is going to have to go.(...)You don't know how those formed either, but they look to me like they were formed by swirling water. (...)The early geologists made up stuff that was patently unbiblical among other things. And facts are facts, it doesn't take any special scientific principles to establish most facts.(...)Yeah my emotions do run away with me. The utterly stupid things people say against my arguments get to me. What difference could writing in all caps make when nothing I say gets the slightest fair hearing anyway?(...) The evidence supports creationism just as well as it can be made to support evolution. It's all a matter of interpretation.{...)I've never claimed more than a rudimentary understanding, but of course I claim to understand enough to make the arguments I make.(...)We're all subject to blindness to other ways of looking at something we've been convinced of.(...)Fossil order is a clever idea but it's not true, it's just the work of the fallen human mind.(...)Oh I may be wrong about this or that, but you certainly must be too, because although I'm sure you do honest geology you are unfortunately doing it without regard to the God who made it all. My guesses may miss some of the physical evidence of what God did, but at least I know He did it. Geology would be a very different enterprise if you acknowledged the Creator God. You know, examine all the evidence with the knowledge that it supports the biblical accounts.
I am not saying that I think the way that Faith thinks, but I can understand her belief. You refer to it as a cult, but at least understand that her belief in Gods revelation is what drives her entire attempt at argumentation. I must say, after reading her replies to the lot of you, that she prays quite a lot for inspiration to carry on this argument, from Biology to Geology,
and is one of the most tenacious debaters that I have ever observed.
Basically, the first point is that God did it. Somehow. Some way.
The second point is that what science calls evidence is simply an interpretation and ultimately a belief.
This is why I requested your explanations for the pictures which you posted. Otherwise we will simply have another topic like Faiths other topics...where she argues relentlessly with you guys. That is not very educational, in my mind.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 9:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 11:13 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 70 (832164)
04-30-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
04-30-2018 11:13 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
she may argue that that's all you have also.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 11:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 11:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 70 (832166)
04-30-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
04-30-2018 11:20 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
First, we would have to agree that the only standard of acceptable proof allowed is, in fact, a model, method mechanism process and/or procedure.(s)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 11:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 11:33 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 70 (832172)
04-30-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
04-30-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
IIRC, you have argued against there even being a Biblical Great Flood.
In Describing what the Biblical Flood would be like. You and Faith cover your respective arguments quite thoroughly. I certainly don't intend to argue in favor of a global flood---perhaps faith will address your pictures and start a counter argument as to their likely origins and methods of formation.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 11:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 12:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 70 (832560)
05-05-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
05-05-2018 8:33 AM


Re: Bump!
you are really obsessed with forcing believers into the ring of logic, reason, and reality....I doubt she will take the bait.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 05-05-2018 8:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-05-2018 12:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 70 (832705)
05-08-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
05-08-2018 6:55 AM


Re: Please try to present information relative to the topic.
This was interesting. Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard
The only reason it interested me was due to the fact that scientists were involved as was ABC News. You likely would label it as infotainment.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 05-08-2018 6:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 05-08-2018 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 05-08-2018 11:46 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 70 (832747)
05-09-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
05-09-2018 8:57 AM


I dont support the flood, but like to discuss it
ringo writes:
Ballard is looking for the origin of the Flood myth - i.e. evidence of A big flood, not a worldwide flood. Otherwise, he wouldn't have to go to Turkey to find it. A worldwide flood would leave evidence in his own backyard.
jar writes:
What is described is NOT a worldwide or even sudden event and no different than what is seen in coastal areas on both sides of the English Channel.
It also has absolutely NOTHING to contribute to this topic.
I would respectfully disagree. You cant expect everyone (or perhaps anyone) to adhere strictly to your criteria of a model, method or means scenario. Granted the Bay Of Fundy is irrelevant. Any good topic has controversy. Otherwise, this topic will sit here in limbo with under 40 posts, gathering dust in the archives.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 8:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 11:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 70 (832781)
05-10-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
05-09-2018 3:20 PM


A Flood Of Controversy
You have provided some solid arguments that indicate that a Biblical Great Flood---at least of the global variety---never happened.
One of my favorite ones that you ever made was this one:
quote:
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:
quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:
quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:
quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earthmen and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the airfor I am grieved that I have made them."
and in Genesis 7:
quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."
In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.
If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.
Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).
Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.
We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.
BUT...
If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.
Talk about a big RED flag.
That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.
So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.
If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.
If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.
And there is no genetic bottleneck signature common to all animals pointing to the same event; thus the Biblical flood has been totally and completely refuted.
A couple of questions:
  • Is there any evidence that a large local flood led to the stories being generated?
  • Is it possible that God did things the way that the Bible says for the purpose of tripping up educated minds?
  • Is it possible to use the logic, reason, and realistic approach and still believe that God exists apart from a character in an ancient book?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 3:20 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 10:09 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 47 of 70 (832785)
    05-10-2018 10:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by jar
    05-10-2018 10:09 AM


    Re: A Flood Of Controversy
    But I see no way that a Flood could do that.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 10:09 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 48 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 10:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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