Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9072 total)
68 online now:
PaulK, vimesey (2 members, 66 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,122 Year: 4,234/6,534 Month: 448/900 Week: 154/150 Day: 0/8 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 2735 of 2887 (832533)
05-05-2018 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2731 by Faith
05-05-2018 2:13 AM


Re: no supergenome
Faith writes:

Which is nothing but a stack of rocks, younger on top of older.

Thank you. Can you please remember that.

But YOUR difficulty is in explaining that where they are found represents the time they lived in.

Well that's got me. If the rocks are organised young to old - which you have just accepted - the organisms found within them MUST also go from young to old.

You can date the layer or layers to a certain age, but you can't prove that they represent a time period when the things in the rock or rocks lived on the earth.

I just did. For an organism to appear in a rock it must have lived at the time the rock was layed down. The strawberry can't be found with the Kiwi fruit.

Layers you've got, fossils you've got, but proving that they lived on the earth in the time frame the rocks have been dated to is not possible.

I just proved it. To be in the rock, they had to be there at the time the rock was formed. It can not be any other way can it?

in fact it's impossible that they ever lived "then" anyway because in many cases the enormous area covered by the rock makes it impossible.

That's just silly. The rock was not rock when the creatures lived on it, it was exactly as it is today; dirt, sand, sediment etc etc. Enormous areas of it.

The subject here is not the Flood, it's the impossibility of the Geologic Timescale.

Of course it's about the bloody flood. Geology explains the strata, the fossils and the timescales and shows why none of it can be explained by a flood 4,500 years ago. You have to explain how the flood can build the observed order in the geology and you can't do it. Avoiding it does not make your problem go away.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2731 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 2:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2740 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 5:09 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 2758 of 2887 (832557)
05-05-2018 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2740 by Faith
05-05-2018 5:09 AM


Re: no supergenome
Faith writes:

OK I get your point but my point is that you can't prove the ROCK represents a LANDSCAPE in a time period so you don't have a landscape to put your animals into which to my mind blows the whole Geologic Timescale idea to bits.

I can't prove this to you that's true, but to all other sentient lifeforms it's blindingly bloody obvious, for many reasons that have been explained to you over and over not excluding the obvious one which is that we see the process happening today.

Organisms live on and above the sediment - sea bottom, soil, beach, desert - the die on it and some get buried by more sediment and are preserved. We see it today. Have you never wondered why archaeologists have to dig? Their sites are even called digs. It's because everything on the land gets buried with time.

In the UK we have a lot of Roman remains - mostly buried. It didn't happen because we dumped a pile of earth on them, it accumulates naturally. In my back garden the path is now 2 inches lower than the earth it was laid on. If I left it it would be buried in another 10 years.

Here: Take a time period, say the Jurassic, and find a map showing its distribution. It covers enormous areas of the whole earth. This is where dinosaur fossils have been found buried, over all that huge territory. It may be represented by different sedimentary rocks in different places but it IS represented by sedimentary rocks. Over all that territory.

The current time period is labelled the Halocene and started just 11,500 years ago when humans first started one of the earth's great extinction events. Bless us. How big an area do you think the Halocene covers? That's correct, it covers the entire earth. In fact the view is that it ought to be called the Anthropocene epoc because we need to find a rock signature that would identify it in 100,000 years time. One idea is the radioactivity created by the first atomic bombs. Just like the rocks in different epochs, it won't be at the same level everywhere and in some places it won't be detectable at all, but in all the places it will be in the same time period shown in the rocks. It is part of the stratigraphic column being built right now ontop of the earth and sea bed.

Of course dinosaurs can't live on rocks, and of course it will be explained that the rock wasn't there for the entire time period

The rock wasn't there at all. IT WAS EARTH. Soil, exactly like today. The dinosaur's soil sat ontop of earlier rock. It became rock thousands of years later along with everything that died there. Just like it is happening today.

but only a small part of it, so presumably the dinosaurs roamed in the area when it was covered with lots of vegetation, which they needed to survive.

There is no other way it could possibly have been could it?

So they would not only have lived but also died

…yes…

and NOT been fossilized in that long long period of time which would have been the main part of the millions of years assigned to the Jurassic.

You were doing so well, then thud, you walked right into your self-erected wall of delusion. They died in that period, where buried in that period and some were fossilised in that period that's why they turn up in the rocks of that period. There is no other way the organisms could get into the rock, other than be there when the rock was forming. Except by magic.

The kiwi fruit can't get into the strawberry layer unless your mother cheats and pushes one through from the layer above. In which case you'd see the evidence of that. Just like we do in the rock when volcanoes erupt through it.

Supposedly sediments kept piling on top, and they had to be the seidments associated with the next time period up the Geo Timescale wouldn't they?

…yes…

And then you keep burying it and burying it without an explanation for how all this material could ever become the simple stack of sedimentary leayers seen in the geo/strat columns everywhere. You have to end up with those particular rocks so they have to be originally the sediments from which those rocks were formed.

Thud. You've had the process of rock formation explained to you endless times.

What animal could live on a flat expanse of one sediment?

Thud. Look out of your window.

There isn't one iota of evidence that their surface was ever lushly covered with vegetation; these are all bare flat rocks.[

Look out of your window. If you're in a city, drive out of it and look around.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2740 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 5:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2760 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 12:00 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 2788 by Coyote, posted 05-05-2018 4:11 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 2782 of 2887 (832587)
05-05-2018 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2760 by Faith
05-05-2018 12:00 PM


Re: the strata again
Faith writes:

Oh well, this is futile. You seem to think "earth" could become a sedimentary rock.

Jesus Christ Faith, it's called the ROCK CYCLE ffs! How long have you pretended to know about geology yet don't understand the first friggin' thing about it? I mean, really this is just sodding silly.

quote:
Over time, soil layers are buried by new layers of sediment and eventually lithify to form sedimentary rock. The rock cycle continues as the sedimentary rocks are again brought in contact with the surface to weather and transform into new soil and other sedimentary rocks, or continue to be covered with newer sediments until they are buried deep in the crust where they may transform into new metamorphic or igneous rocks. The rock cycle is far slower in some places than it is in others, but it will not end as long as Earth is geologically active and has an atmosphere.

https://www.hunker.com/...-does-soil-fit-into-the-rock-cycle


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2760 by Faith, posted 05-05-2018 12:00 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 2844 of 2887 (832695)
05-08-2018 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2841 by Faith
05-08-2018 7:17 AM


Re: Ark bottleneck genetic depletion and evolutionj defeats evolution again
Faith writes:

Uh. Strata. ALL the strata of the Geo/Strat Columns. ALL. And fossils galore, all the dead things the Flood was intended to bring about. SO much evidence.

Utter bullshit.

This is what flood evidence looks like. It's thought to be the largest flood event in the last 10,000 years and it's in China at around 1920 BC. Just a few hundred years after your mythical flood.

The work began by accident, Wu said, when he was helping a colleague along the Yellow River in Qinghai Province. There, below a dam, he noticed some unusual sediment — material likely lodged there when the dam broke years before from flooding.

"By identifying those sediments and carefully surveying their locations on both sides of the valley," said co-author Darryl Granger, professor in the department of earth atmospheric planetary sciences at Purdue University, "we were able to determine the dimensions of the flood channel downstream, and exactly how high the floodwaters reached."

Applying these insights in a standard engineering equation, they determined that the flood that broke the dam gushed forth at roughly 300,000 to 500,000 cubic meters per second.

"That's more than 500 times larger than a flood we might expect on the Yellow River from a massive rainfall event," Granger said. "It's among the largest known floods to have happened on Earth during the past 10,000 years."

The researchers dated the massive flood using radiocarbon dating techniques taken from skeletons and sediments found downstream.

https://www.aaas.org/...vidence-chinas-great-flood-uncovered

You'll also see in the image that the Chinese had an entire dynasty in place only 200 years after the flood. How was that possible?

I've answered this a bajillion times but not on this thread yet so I'll put it here too:

What you mean is that you made up some unevidenced nonsense that everyone called you out on.

The bottleneck does show up in the genome of every creature but not in a way we would expect to see it, because today it would cause severe genetic depletion in a creature, meaning so much homozygosity/fixed loci there is no way for it to continue to vary genetically. Examples are the cheetah and the elephant seal.

Hopeless. What we would see is what we would expect to see. We expect to see it because that's what we see when near exinction event happen. We see it in the genomes of those creatures. The fact that we don't see it in all organisms disproves your fantasies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2841 by Faith, posted 05-08-2018 7:17 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 2869 of 2887 (832738)
05-09-2018 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2865 by edge
05-09-2018 9:03 AM


Re: whole worlds in a rock?
edge writes:

I'm not sure how you have any idea what science is.

This is certainly part of the problem, she has no qualifications in anything and no experience at all in any form of science work. I think she thinks that scientists do what she does; make up ad hoc solutions to problems then move onto the next one.

She has literally no idea how many years of effort it would take to construct an objective, evidence based research paper to attempt to validate just one of her claims. I think she’d be quite shocked by the rigor involved - particularly if the idea is in anyway controversial.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2865 by edge, posted 05-09-2018 9:03 AM edge has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 2870 by Faith, posted 05-09-2018 9:23 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 2872 of 2887 (832741)
05-09-2018 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2870 by Faith
05-09-2018 9:23 AM


Re: whole worlds in a rock?
Faith writes:

Not only is historical "science" a bunch of imaginative fairy tales, the people who support it also like to make up fairy tales about me personally. Interesting.
Personal stuff like that is against the rules but all that has just been tossed to the wind lately.

It's also a fallacy called ad hominem argument, dealing with the subject by attacking the person.

I'm not attacking you, I'm attempting to explain why you are incapable of objective analysis.

I used to like to read about the history and philosophy of science. Also books about evolution. Loved Stephen Jay Gould. I used to respect science. I still respect REAL science, but the historical sciences, evolution, historical geology, really are a lot of fairy tales.

Reading books and so on, is fine but it gives you no idea of the work underpinning the words therein. You also don't understand what is written, which is why you say the absurd things you say. Please note that I'm not saying that you disagree with what's written - of course you do - but you actually don't know or understand the concepts you're criticising.

And, of course, you have absolutely no formal training at any level in the things you're discussing so you can't possibly have a clue about them.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2870 by Faith, posted 05-09-2018 9:23 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 2875 of 2887 (832754)
05-09-2018 1:18 PM


Might as well end where it began - nobody has put a dent in Dr A's near opening post.

Dr Adequate writes:

What a strange stroke of luck that this range of life on earth fits so well with evolutionary predictions. But I guess that's nothing to the massive sequence of coincidences by which the Flood sorted them into the right order. And rigged the radiometric dates in some way which is never properly explained.

Or perhaps coincidence is the wrong word. If one believes there's a divine hand behind all this, then one must conclude that the entire fossil record is a vast lie to trick scientists into being evolutionists, one huge and gratuitous act of deceit on the part of the Almighty.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022