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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 882 (832710)
05-08-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
05-07-2018 12:08 PM


Lady Wisdom
ringo writes:
I've asked you this many times and I really wish you would answer it before spouting the same nonsense over and over again: If you can communicate with your God, why is there no sign of the wisdom He's supposedly imparting to you?
To begin with, how would we even measure this wisdom nor determine its source?
I believe that God gives me wisdom or at least allows me to have more, but I have no way of proving that he is in any way involved in the loop.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 05-07-2018 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2018 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 05-09-2018 3:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 122 of 882 (832711)
05-08-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
05-08-2018 4:17 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Phat writes:
I believe that God gives me wisdom or at least allows me to have more,
I don't believe that you believe that. But in any case, the evidence you provide here denies it.
but I have no way of proving that he is in any way involved in the loop.
If he was, it would be obvious wouldn't it? The fact that it isn't obviuos should at least give you serious doubts. I mean, if this all powerfull all loving god was even remotely interested in your wellbeing don't you think you'd be less of a mess?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 05-08-2018 4:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 05-08-2018 6:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 123 of 882 (832714)
05-08-2018 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Tangle
05-08-2018 4:57 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Tangle writes:
Phat writes:
...but I have no way of proving that he is in any way involved in the loop.
If he was, it would be obvious wouldn't it? The fact that it isn't obviuos should at least give you serious doubts. I mean, if this all powerfull all loving god was even remotely interested in your wellbeing don't you think you'd be less of a mess?
I hope Phat doesn't mind if I stick in my own comment here. It's always risky to speak of our own personal relationship with God to unbelievers, but it is true that if we really are believers that God will guide us. But we have to be seeking Him and seeking His guidance, and we're all at different levels of understanding and different levels of being a "mess" as you put it. God takes us where we are, He doesn't impose standards on us He knows we can't obey, and He doesn't expect us to be able to overcome personality problems we've had all our lives. But He is always available to lead us step by step if we put ourselves in His hands. And a lot of us forget to do that coinsistently. The more we trust Him and ask for His guidance the more He will give it to us. But we have to learn to trust and to ask. Solomon had great wisdom because He asked God for it and then devoted himself to listening for it. In any case we can only receive wisdom at whatever level we've already arrived and God doesn't push us.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2018 4:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2018 2:39 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 124 of 882 (832722)
05-09-2018 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
05-08-2018 6:49 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
^^^ well that was a pile of made up apologetic nonsense wasn't it?
In any case we can only receive wisdom at whatever level we've already arrived and God doesn't push us.
In other words, god does nothing. Almost as though he doesn't exist isn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 05-08-2018 6:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 05-09-2018 3:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 125 of 882 (832723)
05-09-2018 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Tangle
05-09-2018 2:39 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Not made up. Comes from years of reading theology and devotional writers and some who might be called "supersaints." God definitely gives wisdom, we who receive it are quite aware of the expansion of our understanding, but if you are expecting an ordinary person to suddenly become Solomon himself, forget it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2018 2:39 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2018 4:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 126 of 882 (832725)
05-09-2018 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
05-09-2018 3:28 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Faith writes:
Not made up. Comes from years of reading theology and devotional writers and some who might be called "supersaints."
Right, so you didn't make it up, they did.
God definitely gives wisdom,
If he definitly does this then you should be able to point to definitive evidence of it.
we who receive it are quite aware of the expansion of our understanding, but if you are expecting an ordinary person to suddenly become Solomon himself, forget it.
The huge problem here is that those that claim understanding and wisdom rarely actually demonstrate it. I'm assuming that you are including yourself in that 'we'? I have to say I've never met anyone with such a lack of reasoning ability and wisdom. And all the while congratulating yourself on it. It's quite a feat.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 05-09-2018 3:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 882 (832757)
05-09-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
05-08-2018 4:17 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Phat writes:
To begin with, how would we even measure this wisdom nor determine its source?
That's my question to you. If you can't demonstrate the source, how can you decide whether you have "more" wisdom with it than without it?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 05-08-2018 4:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 05-10-2018 3:12 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 882 (832771)
05-10-2018 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
05-09-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
well you have a pointy. But what intrigues me is why your confirmation bias works quite the opposite of mine. I try and make many connections that confirm Gods presence...whereas you make many astute comments and observations which only serve to confirm His absence. Do you feel as if you are hardwired to disbelieve and to find ever more reasons for doing so?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 05-09-2018 3:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 6:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 05-10-2018 3:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 882 (832772)
05-10-2018 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
05-10-2018 3:12 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Phat writes:
But what intrigues me is why your confirmation bias works quite the opposite of mine.
You are conflating confirmation bias and critical analysis and they are two opposite approaches. In the former you have first formed a desired outcome and then only accept the evidence that supports your desired outcome rejecting any evidence that does not support or refutes that desired outcome. In the latter there is no desired outcome rather the body of evidence itself determines the outcome. ringo is not displaying confirmation bias.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 05-10-2018 3:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2018 9:07 AM jar has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 130 of 882 (832774)
05-10-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
05-10-2018 6:40 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom - open minded skepticism
Well, well, well.
This gets us back to open minded skepticism ...
... In the latter there is no desired outcome rather the body of evidence itself determines the outcome. ringo is not displaying confirmation bias.
There is the bias that something not discovered/evidenced but not negated still means it doesn't exist, but this has been shown false many times. Just as theory cannot be considered "truth" because evidence may turn up that negates it. Skepticism should always be tempered with open mindedness to the possibilities that may become known.
But this is also where we get back to Message 1:
quote:
RELIGION:
All your questions answered ...
... trust us ...
SCIENCE:
All your answers questioned ...
... trust nothing ...
Religion is about authority and depends on people (preachers etc), while science is about process independent of people, and you don’t need to be an accredited scientist to do science.
The essential difference is that religion believes it has answers (as Faith's posts amply demonstrate) while science questions everything, ... especially including the unknown.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 6:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 9:27 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 882 (832776)
05-10-2018 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by RAZD
05-10-2018 9:07 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom - open minded skepticism
In the specific case of the existence of a deity or deities I think it's safe to say there is so far no evidence that a deity or deities exist and so believing that a deity or deities exists is not reasonable, rational or logical.
And that is also true of unicorns, ogres, trolls, fairies, ghosts, demons, possession and things that go bump in the night.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2018 9:07 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 05-10-2018 9:34 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 882 (832778)
05-10-2018 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
05-10-2018 9:27 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom - open minded skepticism
Are you thus suggesting that honest Christians should at least admit that their beliefs are not logical, rational or in many cases even reasonable? I can go with that to a degree...but I don't like my Faith to be determined solely by evidence. In many cases (such as Gods existence or non-existence) evidence is impossible to come by, but the belief persists.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 9:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 9:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2018 3:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 882 (832780)
05-10-2018 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
05-10-2018 9:34 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom - open minded skepticism
Phat writes:
In many cases (such as Gods existence or non-existence) evidence is impossible to come by, but the belief persists.
And what is the belief based upon? As you say, there is little (but certainly not NO evidence) and in fact the evidence available is that so far every time there is enough specificity about a deity to seek verification then the god has been shown to not exist.
That only leaves faith as a basis for a belief and faith is a belief in that which cannot be seen or evidenced.
But wait, there's more.
The evidence that IS available shows that there is no single uniform or universal god and that even those who with faith believe is quite different and often totally incompatibly deities. The deity that Faith markets seems to me to be a vile, cruel, dishonest tyrant that should it exist deserves no honor or worship and that should be opposed by all moral beings.
That leaves us with a few possibilities; that all the deities being marketed don't really exist and are just the creation of man or that there are a whole bunch of deities and each believer only gets a glimpse of his/her local deity or that some got it right and all the others got it wrong but there is no way to tell who got it right or wrong or that the deity or deities that do exist are unlike anything we have imagined.
Phat writes:
Are you thus suggesting that honest Christians should at least admit that their beliefs are not logical, rational or in many cases even reasonable?
No, I suggesting that all believers of any religion should at least admit that their beliefs are not logical, rational or in many cases even reasonable and that it's equally likely that everybody but them got it right.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 05-10-2018 9:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 134 of 882 (832790)
05-10-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
05-10-2018 3:12 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Phat writes:
But what intrigues me is why your confirmation bias works quite the opposite of mine.
It's about erring on the side of caution. You don't go rushing out of the house every morning because it might be on fire. If there is any sign of fire you don't want to ignore it but you don't want to spend your entire life running away from something that doesn't exist either.
Phat writes:
Do you feel as if you are hardwired to disbelieve and to find ever more reasons for doing so?
I think most people tend to be hard-wired for jumping to conclusions. In our primitive state that was necessary for survival. But now that we have division of labour and better instrumentation we can afford the time to figure out the right answers.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 05-10-2018 3:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 135 of 882 (832809)
05-11-2018 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
05-10-2018 9:34 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom - open minded skepticism
Phat writes:
but I don't like my Faith to be determined solely by evidence
I don't believe that.
I think every believer would absolutely love their beliefs to be supported by evidence - why wouldn't they? That's why they come here and make up all the garbage they can think of to 'prove' it. Faith being the poster child.
The fact that they can't provide the evidence is what makes it a belief not a fact.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 05-10-2018 9:34 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by NosyNed, posted 05-11-2018 11:19 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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