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Author | Topic: IS THERE A TRUE CHURCH IN THE WORLD TODAY? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: Your penchant for absurd statements knows no bounds. If one is an atheist or agnostic, there is no point in asking Jehovah anything because he does not exist. I could replace Jehovah with Vishnu, Krishna, or a sentient carrot and it would be equally ridiculous. The only ones who cling to an illusion of certitude are those like you who are so blinded by religion and ego that they fail are unable to see the inconsistencies of their beliefs even when it sits on their faces and wiggles. But your rant against non-believers I will take as evidence of your profound fear of us.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: And if your myth does not exist, wishing that he does has no influence on that reality either. You have no way of testing or falsifying that he or Vishnu or a giant sentient toilet bowl cleaner are the omnipotent power in the universe. I see no reason to subscribe to such beliefs.
quote: At least you are consistent. Your conclusions are in now way connected to the premise. Since I don't beleive in god..why would I believe I am one? Interesting that whyt you decide is real is somehow real..at least it is really strange.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: Actually, you should think about why I reject it. You have made repeated claims that cannot be supported. When the authors of studies you claim support your assertions themselves say their results are not significant, you still claim to be correct. In essence, you claim to be right because you claim to be right. Hinduism is older than christianity..therefore it has a higher plausibility of being correct. It is still around so therefore it is even more plausible. Thus you are wrong and Hindu's are right...see, you logic leads nowhere.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: I am not missing Stephen's point. You make the above claim but Stephen does not. You believe because you believe. You cannot support your belief with methodological naturalism i.e. science. Stephen lies and claims he can.
quote: Got news for ya...everybody decides for themselves what reality is whether they are religious or not. And everyone lives their life in terms of being the boss of it. However, unlike what you claim for a god, I am every minute of every day subject to events and circumstances which I cannot control..so again, why should I think this makes me god?
quote: If I first have to believe and I don't then your argument falls apart from the beginning.
quote: Ah, the old my magic stick allows me to see the things you can't see arguement? Sort of like Willowtree's "godsense". You know what, no prayer and nonbelief also works. Believing in all sorts of different dieties works. The only qualitative difference I see among fundamentalist believers and non-believers is the fundie's have no sense of science, literature, or history.
quote: I have no concept of faith in human constructed dieties. I have faith in people that I know. I think it is harder for you to understand those of us without faith than it is for me to understand irrational belief i.e. faith.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: We have different beliefs yet your brother is dead in both of them. Belief in a diety or lack of that belief has no effect on the reality. But my intention with that statment is there are plenty of "believers" who are just as convinced of a personal relationship with their diety who go out and kill people. there are those who do not. Each is convinced that their interpretation of reality is correct.
quote:Not sure where you are going with this line of reasoning but you have the same ability to make decisions. quote:I have seen the arguement from people of different backgrounds that they have some special insight into the truth of their god/gods/pink fairies because they believe and that there must be something wrong with those who do not....my favorite is when two believers who disagree but both claim this "magical power" fight with each other to its ultimately logic free conclusion. quote: Without having a good educational background you will never be able to distinguish completely irrational belief based on lies about the histories of the belief system you adhere to and the complete misunderstanding and mischaracterization of science that pervades fundamentalist mentality from your actual faith.
quote:Good things happen to me and I don't pray. Bad things happen and I don't pray. Good things happen to you when you pray. Bad things happen to you when you pray. But more importantly, I find it more irrational to base one's life on a literal interpretation of a book written by men to claim that one has picked the correct god among the pantheon of other's who also are followed by believers who claim their inerrant books, rituals, icons are also the right one. I find the religious to be even more arbitrary and variable in their beliefs than non-believers. quote: That you make this statement shows that you do not and that you are not particularly interested in divesting yourself of your prejudice.
quote: ok
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: It is not necessarily harsh but it is still prejudiced and rather unfair..but actually not to me. There are plenty of believers in the world who do not share your beliefs. So you would ascribe to them, in your own way, a fault that they may not possess. You have no way beyond your personal belief (and the bible telling you the bible is correct because the bible says so) to make any claims about the validity of any belief or non-belief that you do not share. There is just no objective way to do so.
quote: Which brings us back to my not believing or claiming I am god. I just see no reason personally to believe that some extraneous supernatural force is required to explain the randomness of life. You apparently do. That is fine unless said belief conflicts clearly with reality like cud chewing rabbits of the bible or that anti-science wing of the fundamentalists. If you believe that the origin of the universe is from your god..great, I have no problem with that .
quote: You have been on the site long enough now to watch other creationists who pop onto the site. You see the same litany of scientific misconceptions, mischaracterizations, and falsehoods over and over again. In the more historically oriented threads, you see creationists who have absolutely no concept of the origins and history of their own religion much less anyone elses. It is not unjustified to make the generalization I have made. You have made a crucial step in segregating you faith from methodological naturalism i.e. science. They will never overlap. And a mature relgious belief should not result in a conflict between the two. That you are recognizing this is very good.
quote: I can wish for any number of things and either get them or not. That does not supply evidence for the supernatural. When I was very young I was a believing catholic. I prayed and sometimes what I wished for happened and sometimes not. It is no different for me now. If I wish for something I have a chance that it will happen and a chance it won't. Like flipping a coin. As to basing life on creationism, I don't think I am accusing you of that. But if you base your entire belief on the concepts that science can either support or refute your faith (as most creationists do) then you will do justice to neither.
quote: Feel free to be harsh...as I have been told, I am no peach myself I don't find it harsh. I am just pointing out that I find there are some inconsistencies in what you are saying and that you are finding conflicts where none should exist. And I hope you do not end up in the futility of trying to support your faith and belief with science or by being anti-science as so many creationists have.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: I would say it is time for me to switch back to Augustiner Helles from Paulaner Weissbier But even the strangest things have turned out to have very common answers so if I cannot explain everything it does not lead me to believe in a higher power.
quote: Well, I would not hold my breathe that will believe or start praying. But I am glad to see that you are seeing that science and belief need not be in conflict. Now I have to go pick up my wife and then go and test the Paulaner to Augustiner beer switch...I like my studies to have empirical evidence.. cheers,M
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote:You have chosen to ignore the prayer studies that drew no conclusions because the data was not statistically significant or in some cases showed detrimental effects of prayer i.e. higher frequency of re-admission to the hospital. Or a comprehensive review of the data showing no significant effect.You have only supported that you like to cherry pick evidence which in science is called fraud. quote:The bible says that the bible says..blah blah blah. The Vedas say you are wrong thus your claim is not supported..see it is easy when your standard of evidence is based on opinion quote: First, it is telling that you must seek your definition of science from web sites. It is also telling that the method you describe in no way matches the method described by Popper or on the top hits for H-D even with an online search. So either you do not understand the content of the sites or you are distorting the definition to fit your religious agenda. The two are not mutually exclusive. You are also a hypocrite for claiming that any of the science oriented people on this site demand you "prove" your hypotheses. It seems your only way to make a point is to lie about what Percy, holmes, Mr. Hambre, and myself have been arguing with you about in many other threads. Again, you only support the weakness of your position.
quote: It also supports the plausibility of non-existence of some immortal spiritual being. It also supports the plausibility that the breast of Janet Jackson that we did not see is actually god.
quote:tested further? It is untestable to begin with much less worthy of further testing. quote: I have heard anecdotes as well. I have heard that those who travel to India dump christianity like a hot potato and take up Buddhism. I have also heard that anecdotes that Kid Rock can sing (though I am skeptical since the reports came from Mr. Hambre ). Anecdotes get you nowhere.
quote: With such a level of "understanding" I am surprised you are able to remember how to log onto this site every day.
quote:Great, when will you start practicing H-D?
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: You start with the circular arguement that if you believe in god, god is therefore proven..bzzzt..non science, not a logical conclusion. You then go on to say that if I disagree with this conclusion I must have a demon in my brain or some other malady..bzzt, non science, not a logical conclusion. You then make yet again the claim that what you claim is real science...circular arguments, personal belief, and claims that everyone who disagrees is possessed by a demon strongly suggests that your concept of science would be more fitting for the plot of the next Godzilla movie.
quote: I chose to be nobody's slave...especially mythological dieties...ok, maybe I would be willing to be the love slave of of Heidi Klum but that is beside the point
quote: Your personal faults are hardly positive evidence for your current position.
quote: I understand Mike just fine...you on the other hand are completely inconsistent and incoherent.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
As a non-believer praying is the same as wishing...and since prayer studies have shown either no effect or even detrimental effects (I assume you read the references I posted?) it is a waste of time. In any case, even if prayer had an effect on a desired outcome..it is still not evidence for demons or a higher being...someday maybe you will learn to connect the hypothesis being tested with the data being collected..until then, fart away
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: I think this is an inaccurate description of the paper that was actually in Science titled "Looks like shit, smells like shit, is shit" by Costas Fecalis and Jonas Horsehockey. What they did was a priori assume that praying makes you shit. Costas held out his hand and prayed and Jonas shit in it thus raising the plausibility of their hypothesis from 0.6 to 0.61. The study came to a horrific end when Jonas ate an expired can of Beefaroni and tried to reproduce the results. [This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 02-12-2004]
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: It is not irrelevant Stephen. One research group presented "evidence" that cold fusion works. The studies could not be confirmed by anyone else. Cold fusion is therefore not reproducible science and the evidence is currently against it working. Merely putting out non-reproducible "evidence" and claiming this is sufficient confirmation is not acceptable scientific rigor in case you did not know.
quote: However, you are guilty of the same mistake. You are arguing the validity of biblical matters by claiming the bible says so. There is no difference ultimately..only the subject the bible supposedly "supports" is different.
quote: You brought it up so live with it.
quote: I agree with you here and I hope that it has not chased off mike the wiz from his participation. May I suggest, as Percy wishes, that we confine our discussion of H-D etc to "The best scientific method" thread in the "Is it Science" forum?
quote: That you find the sites confirm what you are saying suggests you are having reading comprehension problems. And what mental functioning problems? I have just as much evidence that Janet Jackson's unseen boob is god as you do for demons or Jehovah...you are just not praying right
quote: This circular reasoning is actually true...now please go out and "know" about it rather than making it up as you go along...see you in the "Is it Science" forum.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: Yes, nobody else can achieve the results they did under the identical experimental conditions they used...hence it is a non-reproducible result, artifact, not caused by what they claim, anecdote. A more recent example of such an outcome uncovered a major fraud in the physical sciences committed by Hendrik Schoen.
quote: Bwahaaahaaahaaa...."A closer examination of the bible shows that this is part of what it says will be true..." Oh no, you don't use the bible to claim the bible is true...my mistake
quote: So stop projecting already.
quote: According to Janet Jackson's "true" divine breast you are wrong and your mind is not protected by the bra of celestial reason...you should be ashamed
quote: How do you know..the boob of Asgara's avatar could also be the one true god and is testing your loyalty. There is just as much compelling reason to believe that as anything you have said thus far.
quote: Oh yes, I am so envious of you..to be a career-less demented old man wishing for greatness and overvaluing my influence and genius...sounds about as wonder-ful as shaving my bellybutton with a chain saw.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote:Still purely circular reasoning. You assume that there is a Jehovah because the bible says there is a Jehovah and thus conclude there is a Jehovah. quote: When I was very young I was and indoctrinated believer...I prayed and believed the mythology though became skeptical very early on (though until I was 4 I believed that Godzilla's son Tadzilla was alive in Japan. The cook book did nothing for me and prayer had no effect, positive or negative, on me or anyone around me anecdotally or even in the studies you quote which show there was no effect (detrimental effects in one study that I cited and you ignored). Thus, the cookbook is a fraud..glad we got that out of the way.
quote: But that is just not true. You believe only in your "personally" compelling religious anecdotes. In the face of contradictory evidence you feel that argument from supposed authority, the bible confirming the bible, and personal anecdote are all the compelling reason you need to claim that your personal beliefs are the truth. There is nothing objective about your mythology and your beliefs carry no more weight than those of a devout Hindu or Muslim or any other religious persons.
quote: I rather "know" that I am as right as far as the tentativeness of science can provide than be president or merely think that I am right.
quote: Why is that? If Vishnu is the true god and mightiest god of the Hindu pantheon and I die and meet him, it will be up to him to explain why if he created me, he could not convince me of his existence. If the galactic pink unicorn is real, I will offer him some sugar.
quote: Considering your angry and hateful outburst against agnostic in the Free for All, it sounds like you are a fairly miserable or at least very angry person ...but regardless, ignorance is bliss.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
Why not? If god/gods/pink unicorns created me ex nihilo then I am their responsibility. It is their fault I was created..so unless they are completely apathetic bozos they should be interested.... And while these mythical beings are at it, they can explain the unbelievable crappy design of the human genome, the unbelieveble waste and inefficiency of biological metabolism, my tail bone and nipples and on and on and on....myths are great...you can do anything with them and never be wrong. I think I see the appeal of creationism now.
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