Religion or Science - How do they compare?

He did say "solely". I'm not sure what that means but it should make a difference to your response I think.

Yes, I was brought up Christian so I read the Bible being already one. Reading the bible and critically thinking about it was very influential in me becoming an atheist. I wasn’t expecting your personal answers on these issues. Not that I’m not interested, but I had already asked you about these on the topic that you created: The tension of faith. You answered the same things you are saying now, I gave you a counter-reply but you made no further comment. Since I had already replied to you about your opinions I won’t go this time point by point, but will just add some comments.I was expecting some videos of sermons you could recommend. I thought you would be very happy to refer me to some of those. On the other hand I understand that you cannot find sermons specifically directed to these issues I listed. The preachers don’t want to go there; they know it could prompt people to question. That’s why they if anything mention them marginally but they are quite skilled at directing people’s attention to nicer and less problematic issues. You may note I wasn’t asking about Christianity’s position on slavery but the Bible’s. It’s hard to tell the position of Christianity at large about anything because there are many different denominations.The fact that there were Christians who led the movement against slavery in the two cases you mention is only circumstantial. It’s what you would expect in countries where pretty much the whole population was Christian. And if they took their cues from the Bible, where could that be from? I would imagine nice quotes taken out of context, like Jesus telling people to love each other or saying that the truth would set them free. I heard the other day someone saying that God was clearly against slavery because he said: Thou shalt not steal and slavery was stealing someone’s freedom. Can you see how ridiculous can one get trying to rationalise the Bible to make it look good?On the other hand, there were also Christians those who supported slavery. And they too, took their cues from the Bible to argue in favour of slavery. And quite frankly, if we were to take the Bible as moral authority we would have to concede that the pro slavery Christians did have a point, because one of the few things the Bible is unambiguous about is its position of endorsing slavery both in old and new testaments. Both in the issue of slavery and gender equality you argue that these were practices ingrained in the people of the times when the Bible was written and God did not outlawed them because people would not obey. But do you know what else was ingrained in the people of that time? Idol worshipping and eating a lot of different animals. However God had no problem telling them not to do that and giving detailed instructions on how to worship only him and what to eat and what not. Couldn’t just as easy the all-powerful God have given them instructions like these: thou shalt not have slaves and thou shalt treat women and men equally? It is understandable that people of biblical times were sexist and considered slavery something normal, but the eternal creator of the universe should have known better. I had already recognised that Christians have done some good things through history in a post that I wrote to GDR. I mentioned the same things you are saying here. Let’s ignore for a moment the bad things Christianity has done. It would be great if Christians simply took the nice things from the bible and ignore the poison. Jesus said some nice things, specifically considering the time the gospels were written. But as much as Jesus, if he existed, could have been someone to admire, and as much as his teachings could have inspired people to goodness, that says nothing about the value of true of the extraordinary claims surrounding him or any other biblical character. Except perhaps killing them (Lev 20:13)? If I am wrong, I would need demonstration of how am I. I’m always open to revise opposing points of view. So far, all I have found from religious views is sheer nonsense. I can see it now that I walked away from it.

Idolatry was a great evil involving human sacrifice to demons and sexual acts of "worship." I already explained that slavery was too enmeshed in the culture's economy to forbid it. There is no reasonable comparison with idolatry. And women are still under the curse of the Fall which was decreed by God for Eve's sin, and that doesn't get lifted until Christianity had spread quite a bit. Why would God lift His curse before its time? And once again, the death penalty is justice, not a crime.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The Gods that are described in the Bible reflect the morality of the peoples and writers that created the stories. For most of history that involved a concept of morality far different than what is common in the current Platonic Ideal.If a Ruler killed a subject that was not immoral and would not have been considered immoral until pretty recently in history. For all of the Old Testament stories and much of the New Testament stories the God character could be described as amoral at best and immoral by modern standards most of the time but excused by the remnants that still stand by the standard that the Ruler can do whatever She wants to subjects.That Biblical concept of morality unfortunately continues even today in much of Christianity; with Christians seeing nothing immoral in the God they market condemning everyone but the "Select" (meaning those that Cult selects) to eternal damnation and by creating Apologetic Justification for events documented in the Bible that could only be seen as immoral by any current moral standard person.You can see this strange justification throughout the early books of the Bible. The God character in Genesis 2&3 creates humans that do not have the ability to know right from wrong or to obey God over some other source, creates an attractive nuisance and even brings it to their attention, gives them a command that they do not have the ability to obey and also lies about what will happen if they do disobey and then punishes them when the inevitable happens.The God in Genesis 6 is even worse. Even though this is the supposed almighty creator speaking there is no attempt to fix what he created but just throw it all away by killing every living thing.The problem is not the Bible; it's the readers and the writers. Their sense of morality is all too often selective; they have one set of standards for "us" and a different set of standards for "them".

Reading the above, the thing that springs to mind is the greatly missed Hitch's staement that 'god created us sick and commanded us to be well'.And thinking about ICNT's blithering elsewhere about scientific knowledge in the bible 'there's nothing written in the bible that couldn't have been known by a person around at the time it was written.'

Hitch was wrong. God created us perfect and we fell into sin and got sick as a result.

You really don't believe the Bible do you? No where in the Bible does it say or imply that God created us perfect, rather the best that can be said is that God looked at what He had created and thought it was very good. Everything; not just humans. And very good not perfect. Humans and pond scum were both very good.Even if you don't read the whole Bible Faith maybe you could at least read the first few pages.

Sorry being so slow on getting back to you. Life seems to happen. I actually meant the former as there is an explanation of the cause of our existence. Either we are the result of a virtually infinite string of causes based on chance or we are the result of intelligence. As has been pointed out to me by atheists on this forum, (and I agree with them), there is no point in talking about time before the BB or when time=o because it is a meaningless question. However you insist that you have to go back before time=0 to ask the question of who created God.
Why when some physicists claim that our universe is infinite, then can we not also accept the possibility of there being an infinite intelligence that is responsible for the fact that we exist? I don’t think that religion pretends to answer the why but it does attempt to explain why just as science attempts to explain how. However, science uses physical evidence in its attempt to explain how, whereas religion uses recorded history and philosophy to explain why.

useless response removed.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Just a thought on this. In many ways I agree with this but with a few caveats. It isn’t the bad things that Christianity has done, but the bad things that some people who wore the label Christian who have done some very bad things.Christianity is a man made religion as all religions are man made. It takes some things such as the life and teaching of Jesus as well as his death and resurrection as being historically true and then forming a theology around that.The core of Christianity is based on seeing Jesus as perfectly embodying the Word or Wisdom of God. Where it gets off track is when it starts understanding the Bible as being essentially dictated by God. The Bible contains all sorts of contradictory statements and actions. You cannot square Jesus’ love your enemies with people’s claims that Yahweh commanded them to commit genocide or public stoning. Either you have CHRISTianity or BIBLEianity. I have chosen Christianity, which in the context of the life and the world I live actually makes sense of it.I believe, (no matter how imperfectly I live it), that God thorough the CHRISTian faith calls me to live a life that is based on sacrificial love, as Jesus lived, or, put another way, to the life that my signature calls us to. The rest of it is all theology.

Of course you know I disagree with most of what you wrote here, and I thought maybe I should just leave it alone, but, well, it usually seems like a good idea just to get my completely different point of view said.Some Christians have indeed done some very bad things. The Popes for instance who promoted the Inquisition that killed millions of Bible believing Christians along with some Jews and Muslims and so on. And yes some "Christians" defended slavery. And so on.True Christianity is not, however, a man made religion, the Bible was inspired by God from beginning to end. Here's one statement of what is believed by traditionally taught Christians: You are accusing God of criminality for His severe punishment of criminals/"the wicked." We are seriously at fault when we refuse to punish criminals severely, such as by abandoning the death penalty. It is in fact love to punish criminals to protect the innocent and society in general. Judging God by your human standards is a very serious sin.Yes we are called to a life of love and mercy, which is only possible through the power of God Himself given to us through the Holy Spirit when we believe. Theology is simply the codification of the teachings of God's word.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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"Who wrote the Bible?"

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Answer: It is accurate to say that God wrote the Bible. According to 2 Timothy 3:16, Scripture is breathed out by God. Throughout the Bible, it is obvious that God is being quoted: over 400 times in the Bible, we find the words thus says the Lord (NKJV). The Bible refers to itself as the Word of God dozens of times (e.g., Psalm 119; Proverbs 30:5; Isaiah 40:8; 55:11; Jeremiah 23:29; John 17:17; Romans 10:17; Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12). The Bible is said to proceed from the mouth of God (Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4).

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As is typical of so-called inerrantists there is considerable misrepresentation of the Bible. For instance Isaiah 40:8 says: The idea that this refers to the Bible as a whole - as the author would have you believe - is simply not present in the text. There is nothing there to say which work is meant to be the word of our God.The Bible talks about the word of God in many places, but to say that the Bible is talking about itself when no such claim is present is simply dishonest.So a question. If the author truly believed that the Bible was the word of God, why would he misrepresent it so obviously ? And if he doesn’t believe it, why should anyone believe him ?Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

At the time the quoted verses were written, the Bible as a whole, did not exist. The use of these verses to justify inerrancy fails in many ways.Further, "thus says the Lord", is almost invariably used to quote words attributed directly to God within a particular passage.If there were better arguments, I have to assume that somebody would be using them.

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At the time the quoted verses were written, the Bible as a whole, did not exist. The use of these verses to justify inerrancy fails in many ways.

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Of course. But Isaiah 40:8 can’t refer to anything that is not already identified as the word of God. To claim otherwise is such an obvious misrepresentation that I think it worse than the obvious mistake.It’s all about fooling the gullible, and putting words into God’s mouth. I think that Christianity is confused. But Christianity - which is what we are dealing with here - is a fraud.

Then why are there so many contradictions in morality, history, timing etc. Yes God inspired people to write their stories and if read correctly He will speak knowledge and wisdom to us through this library of 66 books. Read literally as you do then God is god of situational ethics and hypocrisy, telling us that killing is wrong but then having Him either directly slaughtering communities, or even worse, ordering His followers to commit genocide. That is what you get when you make a false idol out of the Bible, and follow it even when it directly opposes the life and message of Jesus. God doesn’t punish criminals — people do. You however are prepared to worship a god who sanctions public stoning of children and the genocide of whole communities. Not for me thank you very much. Certainly we should do all we can to protect the innocent. As far as capital punishment is concerned it requires that we have some individual take the life of another human being, while we sit at home with clean hands and an unclean heart. If you want to protect the lives of the innocent then I suggest that life imprisonment is just as effective and better for the nation.