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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 91 of 198 (833204)
05-18-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
05-18-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Nope, those are ad-hominem-fodder questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 12:42 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 1:40 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 92 of 198 (833206)
05-18-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
05-18-2018 12:37 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Those are links, not evidence in your own words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 12:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 2:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 93 of 198 (833210)
05-18-2018 1:29 PM


Ibn Khaldun
Ibn Khaldun (/ˈɪbən kælˈduːn/; Arabic: أبو زيد عبد الرحمن بن محمد بن خلدون الحضرمي‎, Abū Zayd ‘Abd ar-Raḥmān ibn Muḥammad ibn Khaldūn al-Ḥaḍramī; 27 May 1332 – 17 March 1406) was an Arab historiographer and historian.[8] He is claimed as a forerunner of the modern disciplines of historiography, sociology, economics, and demography.[n 1][9][n 2]

He is best known for his book, the Muqaddimah or Prolegomena ("Introduction"). The book influenced 17th-century Ottoman historians like Kâtip Çelebi, Ahmed Cevdet Pasha and Mustafa Naima who used the theories in the book to analyze the growth and decline of the Ottoman Empire.[10] 19th-century European scholars also acknowledged the significance of the book and considered Ibn Khaldun as one of the greatest philosophers of the Middle Ages.[11]

From Wiki


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8579
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 94 of 198 (833212)
05-18-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
05-18-2018 12:50 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Then we're forced to form our own conclusions......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 2:15 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 95 of 198 (833218)
05-18-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
05-18-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Then we're forced to form our own conclusions.....

Not necessarily. Civilized people extend the benefit of the doubt and know that ad hominems are bad form.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Percy, posted 05-18-2018 5:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 96 of 198 (833219)
05-18-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Coyote
05-18-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Ibn Khaldun
And that has what to do with the promotion of universal literacy and general education?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Coyote, posted 05-18-2018 1:29 PM Coyote has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 97 of 198 (833221)
05-18-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
05-18-2018 12:52 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Faith writes:

Those are links, not evidence in your own words.

You really are ignorant of what evidence is. Amazing.

My own words are not evidence, the reality that the words point to is the evidence Faith.

Basics.

Edited by jar, : appaling spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 2:52 PM jar has replied
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 3:45 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 198 (833223)
05-18-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
05-18-2018 12:37 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
because society can only deteriorate without a Christian worldview to govern it. We're not talking "A religion" of course, we're talking the God who made it all.

Luckily the policy of indoctrination failed and the result is that with the decline of religion's power, secular society has made huge progress despite being utterly stagnant for a millenia under religious rule.

"Millennium" is the singular.

Without Christianity there would have been no secular UK. You'd still be a bunch of warring tribes, some gallivanting around in body paint, some worshiping the sun at Stonehenge, performing witchcraft, celebrating Samhain by propitiating the Aos Si, the pagan gods etc. Perhaps you'd have enjoyed that more than civilization though. Guess what, I think you might eventually get a chance somewhat along those lines....

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2018 12:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 198 (833224)
05-18-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
05-18-2018 2:36 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Your words could STATE the evidence. The links aren't going to be much in the way of evidence anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 2:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 3:22 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 3:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 100 of 198 (833227)
05-18-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
05-18-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
LOL

Sheesh you sure love being ignorant don't you.

This started because I stated the facts but you asked for more support for those statements. I provided the links that supported what I originally stated. If you wish to remain utterly ignorant you will succeed in being utterly ignorant; of read the information provided in the links.

Or maybe even learn very basic world history.

Back to the beginning just for Faith:

In Message 66 I posted:

quote:
You do realize that there is a difference between Harvard University and Harvard Divinity School? While the Divinity School is certainly part of the University it is only one part.

You do understand that education in the West was simply trying to catch up to the general education level found in the rest of the world, particularly the Muslim, Taoist, Buddhist nations?


You seemed to doubt at least the second of those facts so I provided the evidence to show that the Christian West far from driving general education was in fact simply trying to catch up to the rest of the world.

The evidence is that at the time the Christian West was in the Dark Ages and long before Christianity even existed there were societies with advanced education and learning institutions. There are even many examples of general literacy among civilizations that preceded Christianity.

Edited by jar, : see back to beginning


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 2:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 101 of 198 (833232)
05-18-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
05-18-2018 2:36 PM


.The Perspective Of The Dogma Of The Cult
I can see this argument from multiple perspectives. Allow me to comment on a few, speaking from what jar would call the dogma of the cult.

Faith writes:

...society can only deteriorate without a Christian worldview to govern it. We're not talking "A religion" of course, we're talking the God who made it all.

Faiths position here presupposes the idea that humans were lost before God so loved the world that He gave us ..His Son. From Faith's perspective, she was well respected by intellectuals and cultural wisdom but became enlightened through her salvation epiphany.

This belief drives her concept of evidence in everything. The evidence is based on Gods way of doing things and His Spirit. jar believes that though GOD exists, GOD is the reality and does not favor humans, as the religion (and Bible) taught. jar essentially believes that we are charged to use our GOD given brains to study, learn, and figure out the reality for ourselves. Faith believes that GOD is knowable through Jesus Christ, through whom all was created...exactly how the book(Bible) tells it.

Any efforts by jar to teach her reality and history are refused because Faith believes that human wisdom without Gods enlightenment is naturally corrupt.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 2:36 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 102 of 198 (833233)
05-18-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
05-18-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Christianity cannot be trusted with any power or authority.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but dont you believe that jar does not really understand the Spirit behind the Bible? That though he may read it literally, he remains ignorant of the GOD Who impressed it upon the minds of those who have an ear to hear?

From the perspective of classical apologetics, the book is inspired (by God) and is without error as to its intended teaching.

From jars perspective, the book(s) are simply authored, edited, and redacted by humans seeking to understand GOD (and perhaps many who had ulterior motives to start new religions and promote the dogma of their cult)

Does that sound about right?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 2:52 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:13 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 103 of 198 (833237)
05-18-2018 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
05-18-2018 3:51 PM


Why was the Spirit such a miserable failure?
Phat writes:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dont you believe that jar does not really understand the Spirit behind the Bible? That though he may read it literally, he remains ignorant of the GOD Who impressed it upon the minds of those who have an ear to hear?

How come that Spirit failed so miserably to ever get the story straight or avoid all the contradictions and factual errors present in what was written?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 4:23 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 104 of 198 (833241)
05-18-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
05-18-2018 4:13 PM


Re: Why was the Spirit such a miserable failure?
Perhaps because if it were done your way, people would simply have to believe. The facts and evidence would be there.

GOD literally would have written the book.

The fact is that humans wrote it.

Some believe that humans were uninspired by GOD.

Others believe that those who have an ear to hear are inspired, while the skeptics will be forever attempting a conclusion.

Belief presupposes certainty.

Science by nature throws the conclusions away and continually challenge its own conclusions.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:30 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 105 of 198 (833243)
05-18-2018 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
05-18-2018 4:23 PM


Re: Why was the Spirit such a miserable failure?
Phat writes:

Perhaps because if it were done your way, people would simply have to believe. The facts and evidence would be there.

That does not answer the question. Why wasn't the Spirit capable of getting the flood story straight instead of two mutually exclusive stories? Why wasn't the Spirit capable of getting the order of creation right as well as the method of creation instead of inspiring two mutually exclusive stories? Why could'd the Spirit inspire one version of the Great Commandment or the Road to Damascus affair? Why could the Spirit decide on one set of stories to include in "The Bible" instead of versions with only five stories to versions with over eighty?

Why couldn't the God character put all the evidence in the order that matched what the Spirit was marketing?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 4:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 05-18-2018 4:48 PM jar has replied

  
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