Creation

Hi AZ I want to address this part of the post and I will get to the rest later.I am going to guess the 3 raisins we started with has 1,000 raisins between themselves and the raisins on the exterior of the ball.If the raisin next to those three raisins moved 50,000 miles in one second and all the rest moved the same distance from the raisin next to it, it would be a far piece to the one that was on the exterior of the ball when expansion began.
1,000 raisins with 50,000 miles between each.
The three raisins would be 50,000 miles from where they were.
Making the one that was on the surface at least 50,000,000 miles from the three raisins we started with.All this would be accomplished in 1 second.Is that what you are telling me?God Bless,

Hi ringo, So the galaxies are wrinkles in the outside of the fabric of the universe.How is that possible when there is no outside of the universe? So the galaxies are not wrinkles on the inside surface of the fabric of the universe.But the air in the balloon and the balloon as well as the Volkswagen passing by on the street are on the inside of the universe. So according to ringo the outside of the universe has a surface.How is that possible as there is no outside of the universe? Jesus is referred to the Lamb of God because He was offered as a sacrifice for you and everybody else to restore each to a right relationship with God.Before His sacrifice lambs were offered on the altar of sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. My understanding or misunderstanding of the balloon analogy has nothing to do with it being the worst analogy to represent the universe. I just take Ask an Astronomer in the Astronomy Department at Cornell University's word for it. They say: "it should be banished forever into the dustbin of history because it's the source of so much confusion".God Bless,

Hi NoNukes According to the standard theory everything in the universe visible and invisible was packed into that small, dense, hot little thingy that expanded into the universe we have today. .But I only imagined 10 lbs of raisins packed into such an area.Now if you could address the space that would have been between the raisins and how that space would expand and two of those raisins ever coming into contact with any other raisin of that 10 lbs of raisins I think that would help me to understand expansion of the universe.Do you have such knowledge you could share? I thought all analogy's were made up stuff, to represent other stuff.But since you disagree you have the floor and are invited to explain exactly how the universe and it's contents were compressed into such a small object. Then how and why the space between that stuff began to expand. That is enough for starters but I got more I would like for you to explain after you get through with that.God Bless,

Hi Mod Ok the space in the Milky expanded. Is it still expanding at the same rate today?Since you say the space between me and my keyboard is expanding maybe you could explain how?You say the space between my keyboard and myself is expanding. Well it does expand every time I get ready to get up from my chair. My keyboard is on a shelf with 22" drawer guides so the space expands by 22". So an object that contained everything in the universe that is seen and unseen would not have a center as the object I mentioned? I understand that according to the standard theory there is no other place that everything seen and unseen in the universe could have existed at T=10^-43.But my question is what mechanism compressed and held everything seen and unseen in the present universe to the volume that existed when it began to expand? Immediately after what? It did not exist at T=0 or at least we don't know of anything existing at T=0. Observations would require someone to see the light when it left and observe it during it's entire journey.Mathematics can be made to say anything you want the numbers to say, Einstein proved that. I agree that according to the standard theory the entire universe was contained in something the size of a pin point.That space in that same small universe began to expand and expanded to what we have today and parts of it is still expanding today. Actually I thought a rectangle had a coordinate as it would need to have depth to have a center. But I could be wrong. How can a 2d picture curve around on itself unless you roll it up? It would not make any difference how much you reduced the diameter of the earth the core would still be the center of the earth. According to the standard theory that is correct as there is nothing outside the universe as it was a self contained universe that expanded to the present universe. Are you saying the universe is not an object? It was just smaller when it began to expand. Yes I understand according to the standard theory everything that exists today in the universe expanded from that very small, dense, hot, thingy. If all of that space expanded at the same rate how did anything ever get together to form anything we see in the universe?Seems to me that whatever the space was in would have been separated into a lot of little specks in a lot of space.God Bless,

That is not what the standard theory says was "packed into that small dense, hot, thingy". Small wonder that you are way off base.Here is a hint. What you are actually doing here is stating an opinion on the state of the universe at T = 0. Does the big bang theory include that? Does it provide details on the size or state of matter/energy at T = 0?I think even you know that the answer to that question is no.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

In essence, yes. I haven't looked too closely at your math, it doesn't really matter, but the gist of what cosmologists think that first 10^-33 to 10^-32 of a second of our universe's existence (the inflationary epoch) looked like, is roughly represented by your analogy.What is even more mind blowing is that we estimate that during each tiny fraction of that already very small time period (the inflationary epoch) the size of the universe doubled. So starting at the age of 10^-33 seconds, a tiny fraction of a second later (10^-35 seconds later) the universe had doubled. Then by 10^-35 seconds after that the universe had doubled again, and yet again and again until the inflationary epoch ended when the universe reached the ripe old age of 10^-32 seconds and was now 10³⁰⁰ times it's initial size.Though the exponential doubling at such a high rate has ceased we still live in a universe where space itself appears to be expanding in much that same way. Every point in space everywhere is expanding at a rate of about 68 km per second per 3,261,563 light years. If I haven't messed my sums up that's about .00000000687 millimeters per year at the tip of your nose.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Hi AZ How did the raisins get compressed into a volume the size of the universe before it began to expand?No the raisins could not exert any pressure. The pressure would have to come from external sources. The source that reduced the size of the 10 lbs of raisins.The only place space could have existed was between the raisins. It would not have existed in the raisins.The only way the space between the raisins could begin to expand would have been by releasing the pressure it took to compress the raisins in the first place. An explosion would allow such an expansion as you describe. But the universe did not explode it just expanded at a particular rate.So without an explosion the space to the outside edge of the ball would expand faster than the space near the center of the ball. This is what is observed with the universe today as things farther away from us is moving at a greater speed than those close to us. But if all the space grew at the same rate the raisins on the surface of the ball of raisins would have moved 50,000 times what the 3 original raisins had moved. In other words they would have moved 50 million miles in 1 second. That would be 268.817 times the speed of light.Lets break that down to a realistic number.
The space between the raisins expanded at 46 miles per second.
The raisin on the exterior of the ball of raisins would have to travel 46,000 miles in 1 second if the space expanded 46 miles between each of the 1,000 raisins to the original 3 raisins.In 1 minute the exterior raisin would have traveled at least 2,760,000 miles. Which is traveling at a little over 25% of the speed of light. But that is not what I was trying to show.Each raisin represents the neutrons, protons, electrons, anti-electrons, photons and neutrinos, that existed 1 second after the BB.After 380,000 years atoms were formed. After another 1.6 million years gravity began to build stars and galaxies from clouds of gas.But if the space had expanded between each element in and after the big bang each of those electrons would have been a long ways apart with no way of touching each other.I will finish answering the post later.God Bless,

The rate at which space expands has varied through time. The same way that any space expands. It is expanding at about 70km/s per megaparsec.If your keyboard is 1 metre away then the space between is expanding at a rate of70 / 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilometers per second.
Or 0.00000000000000000000225 kilometres a second. Right. There was no mechanism compressing or holding everything. Why would it need to be held? There's nowhere else for it to go. Well, if there was no before - then it cannot be after anything.
If there was a before - then immediately after it came into existence. While those observations would be interesting - it would probably involve being a photon so it's unlikely you'll be able to give a detailed account of your observations.There are many other observations one can perform and use calculations to understand what is going on. If the big bang happened then there'd be a CMBR. If there is a CMBR it would be about 13 billion light years away. By definition any light that reaches us from that period must have taken 13 billion years to get here. A rectangle has a centre, which is described using a coordinate. It's x coordinate is half it's length and it's y coordinate it's half of it's height. The same applies to circles, but it's simpler with circles because x and y coordinates are always the radius (x=radius, y=radius). I'm talking about the surface of a sphere which the 2D map is merely a representation. The surface is also 2D and it wraps around itself to form a sphere.Like Pac-man's maze world is a donut shape -> He goes off to the right and appears on the left. He goes up, and appears at the bottom. His world is wrapped around on itself to form a donut shape. There is no centre to his 2D world as there are no edges. Still talking about the 2D surface of a spherical object, not a 3D object. You cannot point to the core on a map. If it's not on the map then it's not the centre of the surface of the earth.You agreed the 2D map has no centre. Do you agree in general that 2D topologies can have no centre, if they are curved around on themselves like the earth's surface is? Not in the way a ball of dough with raisins is an object. It does not have boundaries/edges like objects do. The rate of expansion varies over distance, things that are close together experience less space expansion between them than things further apart. Things that start close together can stay close due to various forces - the Strong, Weak, Electromagnetic and Gravity holding them together.When all of the energy in the universe is the size of a pin prick, everything is pretty close to one another. It was, as they say, very dense. Once conditions were sufficient it was still dense enough that gluons can bind together to form nuclei via the Strong force which acts at a range of 10^-15 metres. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

I'm thinking we are getting confused between the fast exponential inflationary epoch of the early universe and the slower expansion of space we are experiencing today. My fault.If we start first with the early universe (10^-34 seconds) there were no neutrons, protons, electrons, anti-electrons, photons and neutrinos as well as no electromagnetic or nuclear forces. The hyper inflationary period of space expansion lasted from about 10^-34 seconds to about 10^-32 seconds after which the universe has experienced some varying degree of the space expansion we see continuing today (sorta more or less). At this point, 1 second old, the universe is huge due to the ravages of the inflationary epoch and, yes there are now neutrons, protons, electrons, anti-electrons, photons and neutrinos, etc, but there is also the full suite of fundamental forces we know today. Why? The hyper inflationary epoch has ended and the (more or less) usual expansion of space like we see today is in play.Just like today, the fundamental forces between particles can more than overcome the expansion of space if the particles are close enough, and at 1 second of age the universe is chuck full of elementary particles in a mega-hot plasma all crashing into each other, splitting apart, recombining and going round and round all while every point in space is lazily expanding like a slow summer stroll.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Hi NoNukes I am not referring to T=0.
I am referring to one nanosecond after T=0.
According to cavediver the universe existed as well as everything in it and was about the size of a pin point. It was very dense and very hot billions upon billions of degrees K.
According to Son Goku the universe existed as well as everything in it and was about the size of a pea. It was very dense and very hot
billions upon billions of degrees K.I have been in a plant where particle board was made. The mixture of glue and sawdust is spread on a sheet. The thickness will determine whether you get a 1/2" or 3/4" board. It is then placed under 22,000 psi for a short period of time. It is then trimmed and allowed to cool. It will cook your hands if you touch it when the pressure is released.So to get a lot of stuff in a small place requires some packing of the material together. But maybe you know a better way to get everything in the universe that is seen and unseen in an area the size of a pin point or a pea. I am not stating an opinion of the state of the universe at T=0. I am stating what I have been told by cavediver and Son Goku as they described the universe 1 nanosecond after T=0.God Bless,

That is not what you posted ICANT. You opined about before expansion. See quote below. Even ignoring what I am now convinced is deliberate dishonesty, the point still stands. When was matter created? Does your question about pressure and raisins apply even at 1 nanosecond? The answer is no. You are making nonsense statements and asking nonsense questions and you won't take any correction. I am done with you on yet another topic.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This is correct, except that the "everything" at this T=10^-35 seconds is something we don't know. We can conjecture that this "everything" was (I hate to use this...but) pure energy in a super concentrated form. We do not yet have a working theory of Quantum Gravity nor a working Theory of Everything and since Quantum Field Theory and General Relativity do not work together well in this extreme state we have no way of knowing what this stuff was.Therefore, you cannot say everything we see today was somehow squeezed into this pinpoint. The giant oak tree was not squeezed into an acorn. Instead, we can say this "stuff" was the initial condition of the universe from which "everything" ended up manifesting, evolving, growing out of.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Nicely said. We don't know what the physics was regarding the interactions between the stuff, but it is a safe bet that the physics were not like somebody squeezing the juice out of raisins. Good luck getting ICANT to take what you say into account. If he did not get it when cavediver and Son Goku explained it, then what will he make of this?Seriously, nobody would assume that a human sperm had half of an 80-year-old man squeezed into it, with the other half squeezed inside an ovum. Why then these dumb ass questions? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Your questions was "as the outside surface of the balloon". In the analogy, galaxies are "wrinkles" on the outside surface of the balloon, represented by dots. In the analogy, there is no "inside surface". The outside surface of the balloon represents ALL of the universe. No they are not. The outside surface of the balloon represents ALL of the universe. No. The outside of the balloon is a surface. The balloon is not the universe. It only represents the universe. Do you understand the difference between a picture and the thing it represents? Yes. And you didn't mention Jesus' wool or His meat, did you? Why not? because they are not part of the analogy. Similarly, the inside of the balloon is not part of the analogy. If you cherry-pick your answers, you can find one you like. Ask another astronomer such as this one, if you're at all honest about understanding.

My advice would be the latter, but, it's your boat and you can float it anywhere you like.