Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 421 of 882 (833634)
05-24-2018 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Percy
05-24-2018 1:25 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
It is because of the requirements of evidence and replicability that science has shown itself to be the best method we have of understanding the natural world.
That's what I said.
And if belief is rightly invested in the revelation of the true Creator God, that revelation is a reliable source of important knowledge about the world among many other things.
Some people believe this, but religion lacks requirements for evidence and replicability, so it isn't possible to verify its claims.
The statement as I wrote it is unquestionably true: IF belief is rightly invested in the revelation of the true Creator God, that revelation is a reliable source of important knowledge about the world... You may disagree with the premise's assumption of a true Creator God, but if the premise is true, the conclusion is true.
Science is the best method of achieving reliable knowledge invented by fallen humanity, but the true God is nevertheless a reliable source of knowledge on whatever He reveals if rightly believed and understood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Percy, posted 05-24-2018 1:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 05-24-2018 2:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 422 of 882 (833636)
05-24-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by ramoss
05-24-2018 7:13 AM


Re: Moral problems of Christianity today.
Why are you repeating lies about Judaism? Have you ever read the talmud, or do you rely on claims other people make?
See Message 295 for my source.
And see Message 309 for a list of New Testament descriptions of the attitude of the Jewish leaders toward Jesus if you think they wouldn't say anything negative about Him in their Talmud.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by ramoss, posted 05-24-2018 7:13 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 423 of 882 (833638)
05-24-2018 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Faith
05-24-2018 1:38 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
Faith writes:
It is because of the requirements of evidence and replicability that science has shown itself to be the best method we have of understanding the natural world.
That's what I said.
So you're accepting my version, which does not include your implication that science has problems "rightly handling the evidence so that others can verify it"?
And if belief is rightly invested in the revelation of the true Creator God, that revelation is a reliable source of important knowledge about the world among many other things.
Some people believe this, but religion lacks requirements for evidence and replicability, so it isn't possible to verify its claims.
The statement as I wrote it is unquestionably true: IF belief is rightly invested in the revelation of the true Creator God, that revelation is a reliable source of important knowledge about the world... You may disagree with the premise's assumption of a true Creator God, but if the premise is true, the conclusion is true.
That premise and conclusion are connected is something you believe, not something you can demonstrate due to the lack of evidence and replicability.
...but the true God is nevertheless a reliable source of knowledge on whatever He reveals if rightly believed and understood.
Again, something you believe but cannot demonstrate.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 1:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 2:31 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 424 of 882 (833639)
05-24-2018 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Percy
05-24-2018 2:21 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
You are having a problem with ordinary simple logic.
If the premise is true -- and it doesn't matter if you believe anything in the premise -- if it is true the conclusion is true. It doesn't matter who believes it, IF the premise is true the conclusion is true.
The point is that there isn't just the one method of arriving at true knowledge of the world. There is empirical science and there is the revelation of God, and it matters not whether some people don't believe in God for the statement I made to be true.
I simply don't understand why anyone would object to my qualification about rightly handling the evidence so others can verify it. Surely it is true on the face of it. I assumed it in my answer, I haven't changed anything by "accepting" your "version." And it isn't the case that science never gets anything wrong as I would expect you to recognize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 05-24-2018 2:21 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by NoNukes, posted 05-24-2018 3:08 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 428 by Taq, posted 05-24-2018 3:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 05-24-2018 5:38 PM Faith has replied
 Message 442 by Percy, posted 05-25-2018 10:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 425 of 882 (833640)
05-24-2018 2:34 PM


This is starting to get tediously irritating with stupid responses so I should take a break before it escalates.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 426 of 882 (833641)
05-24-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by Faith
05-24-2018 12:27 PM


Faith's fantasies vs reality
Faith writes:
Which describes you very nicely, jar, since you believe you are a Christian though the reality is that you are not because you don't believe the essential things that would make you a Christian.
Yet the reality remains that I am a registered, enrolled member of a recognized Christian sect and thus a Christian despite your fantasies.
Faith writes:
And you believe that the Pope is a Christian though the reality is that he is not, as I showed in Message 387.
Yet the reality is that the Pope is a Christian and that you asserted the fantasies of your Cult in Message 387.
Faith writes:
And you believe that you understand the Bible though the reality is that you do not.
Yet the reality is that I believe the Bible actually says what it says instead of the fantasies of your Cult and so quote what the Bible actually says.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 12:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 5:59 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 427 of 882 (833642)
05-24-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Faith
05-24-2018 2:31 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
I simply don't understand why anyone would object to my qualification about rightly handling the evidence so others can verify it.
Because your statement is not operative. You are not pointing to any problems with the handling of evidence, you are just blowing smoke. I would also add that it impossible to handle the evidence so that you could do any verification. You cannot even conduct a simple experiment with a protractor, sand and a bucket of water.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 2:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 428 of 882 (833644)
05-24-2018 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Faith
05-24-2018 2:31 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
Faith writes:
The point is that there isn't just the one method of arriving at true knowledge of the world. There is empirical science and there is the revelation of God, and it matters not whether some people don't believe in God for the statement I made to be true.
The problem is that you are not arriving at true knowledge. Instead, you are starting with what you claim is true knowledge without any evidence leading up to it. You proclaim that a specific text is a revelation of God, because you say so. That is simply proclaiming something to be true knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 2:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 6:06 PM Taq has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 429 of 882 (833647)
05-24-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Faith
05-24-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
RAZD writes:
Phat writes:
What are the motives of science in general?
To understand how things work.
What are the motives of religion?
To understand how everything works.
And yet, religion is amazingly shy on how that understanding is tested and verified, while a number of scientific studies and investigations have shown that some of religions "explanations" for how things work are patently false.
Meanwhile the short list of scientific discoveries that have been proven false by religion is:
quote:
1. ______________
eg nada.
Sound like a poor system.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 11:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 430 of 882 (833651)
05-24-2018 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Percy
05-24-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
Percy writes:
One argument would be that atheists are more moral than non-atheists. A different argument would be that incarceration helps people find religion.
Or that atheists are too smart to get caught.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Percy, posted 05-24-2018 11:52 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 431 of 882 (833652)
05-24-2018 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Faith
05-24-2018 2:31 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
Faith writes:
If the premise is true -- and it doesn't matter if you believe anything in the premise -- if it is true the conclusion is true. It doesn't matter who believes it, IF the premise is true the conclusion is true.
Yeh, but your task is to prove the premise to be true, else
IF candy floss is the secret to everlating life
THEN anyone that eats it will live forever.
ie it's an utterly poinless bit of pseudo logic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 2:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 6:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 432 of 882 (833654)
05-24-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by jar
05-24-2018 2:41 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
There are lots of people who sit in churches every Sunday who eventually find out they were never saved. It's very common. Scripture says "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith" and I suggest that's what you need to do. Being a member of a church is not proof of being a Christian.
Everything I wrote about the Roman Catholic practices and the papacy in Message 385 is true, as I think even you would have to recognize.
And theologians galore would find your readings of the Bible ridiculous. Calling mainstream Christianity a "Cult" wouldn't fly anywhere except at EvC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by jar, posted 05-24-2018 2:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by jar, posted 05-24-2018 6:35 PM Faith has replied
 Message 443 by Percy, posted 05-25-2018 10:11 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 433 of 882 (833655)
05-24-2018 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Tangle
05-24-2018 5:38 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
You don't have to believe my logic, the logic itself stands as written and millions of Christians know it's true and that's enough for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 05-24-2018 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Tangle, posted 05-24-2018 6:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 444 by Percy, posted 05-25-2018 10:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 434 of 882 (833656)
05-24-2018 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Taq
05-24-2018 3:21 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
Millions of Christians and at least thousands of Bible experts say it's God's revelation. We all agree and it doesn't matter that others don't. 0I'm not offering it to you to believe it, I'm just stating that the true God is a source of knowledge. Eventually, I'm sure of it, eventually, it's going to bring down the ToE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Taq, posted 05-24-2018 3:21 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Percy, posted 05-25-2018 10:17 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 460 by Taq, posted 05-25-2018 4:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 435 of 882 (833657)
05-24-2018 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Faith
05-24-2018 6:02 PM


Re: Back to the title of the thread
Faith writes:
You don't have to believe my logic, the logic itself stands as written and millions of Christians know it's true and that's enough for now.
I just demonstrated that what you proposed as logic was, in fact, not logical.
You simply stated what you believe. Please don't confuse that with logic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 6:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Faith, posted 05-24-2018 6:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024