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Author Topic:   Creation
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 722 of 1482 (833297)
05-19-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 720 by ICANT
05-19-2018 10:38 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
This space could not expand at the same rate as the earlier space due to the restraints of the pressure it was under.
This is an assumption that may not apply regardless of what your analogy says. Let's recall that an analogy is only for explaining facts as you know them. Analogies generally cannot be used reliably to prove new things because we they break down at some point.
In this case, we have a sentence that you have just thrown in with no justification. The restraints of what pressure ICANT? Pressure results from having some force between objects, and you have not postulated any such thing.
After a couple of minutes that 10 lbs of raisins would be spread over quite a large area. The space between each raisin would continue to expand driving the raisins further and further apart. After an hour or so there would be no raisins that was anywhere near the raisins they had been in contact with just 1 hour prior.
In the real universe, there are forces between objects and the rate of expansion of nearby objects is small. In fact far less than 50,000 miles per second for nearby objects, which is a number you seem to have pulled out of thin air anyway.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 10:38 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:05 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 723 of 1482 (833298)
05-19-2018 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 721 by Phat
05-19-2018 11:04 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
If everything was contained in the singularity, does that include every possible thought?
Everything means all of the matter/energy that later became other things. So no, the singularity would not have contained thoughts.
Was math invented or discovered? What is the difference between an invention and a discovery?
As far as math is concerned, that is a reasonable question. But not because of your initial premise

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 11:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 735 of 1482 (833321)
05-19-2018 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 728 by ICANT
05-19-2018 12:05 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
think I had mentioned taking 10 lbs of raisins and compressing them into a ball the size of a pea. That would require an extreme amount of pressure on theball of raisins
In what way is space or the universe like that, ICANT? Was the original singularity made of compressed matter?
It was an imaginary number. You can use any number you desire. A mile a second would scatter my raisins over a large area in a very short time.
Fine, then let's use my number of 70km/sec per megaparsec of separation. Using that rate, how long would it take for things that are 10 ^-10 meters apart to separate appreciably?
My point is that you cannot make up stuff in an analogy and then claim that it represents something real. Your raisin analogy is worthless.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 12:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 2:16 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 740 of 1482 (833387)
05-20-2018 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by ICANT
05-20-2018 2:16 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
According to the standard theory everything in the universe visible and invisible was packed into that small, dense, hot little thingy that expanded into the universe we have today.
That is not what the standard theory says was "packed into that small dense, hot, thingy". Small wonder that you are way off base.
Here is a hint. What you are actually doing here is stating an opinion on the state of the universe at T = 0. Does the big bang theory include that? Does it provide details on the size or state of matter/energy at T = 0?
I think even you know that the answer to that question is no.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by ICANT, posted 05-20-2018 2:16 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by ICANT, posted 05-21-2018 1:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 746 of 1482 (833448)
05-21-2018 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 745 by ICANT
05-21-2018 1:39 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
I am not referring to T=0.
I am referring to one nanosecond after T=0.
That is not what you posted ICANT. You opined about before expansion. See quote below.
ICANT writes:
How did the raisins get compressed into a volume the size of the universe before it began to expand?
Even ignoring what I am now convinced is deliberate dishonesty, the point still stands. When was matter created? Does your question about pressure and raisins apply even at 1 nanosecond? The answer is no. You are making nonsense statements and asking nonsense questions and you won't take any correction. I am done with you on yet another topic.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by ICANT, posted 05-21-2018 1:39 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2018 2:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 748 of 1482 (833496)
05-22-2018 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by AZPaul3
05-21-2018 3:10 PM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
We do not yet have a working theory of Quantum Gravity nor a working Theory of Everything and since Quantum Field Theory and General Relativity do not work together well in this extreme state we have no way of knowing what this stuff was.
Nicely said. We don't know what the physics was regarding the interactions between the stuff, but it is a safe bet that the physics were not like somebody squeezing the juice out of raisins. Good luck getting ICANT to take what you say into account. If he did not get it when cavediver and Son Goku explained it, then what will he make of this?
Seriously, nobody would assume that a human sperm had half of an 80-year-old man squeezed into it, with the other half squeezed inside an ovum. Why then these dumb ass questions?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by AZPaul3, posted 05-21-2018 3:10 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by AZPaul3, posted 05-22-2018 12:16 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 754 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2018 4:40 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 779 of 1482 (833563)
05-23-2018 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by ICANT
05-22-2018 11:05 PM


Re: complexities don't always translate into analogies
So my aim is the same, causing people to question what they have been force fed. I know the hard core posters here will never do that but the lurkers will that is the reason they are here.
I imagine that there are portions of the lurkers who will accept that the universe acted just like raisins, and will ignore the fact that your claims and assumptions do not match anything that scientists are actually saying about the universe. They won't see that you are addressing a strawman, and will be just as pleased with your explanation as you are pleased with yourself.
Anyone who has actually gotten past the sixth-grade "substraction" that you have had has a pretty good chance at seeing that you are full of it. I'm satisfied that you won't fool anyone capable of understanding the theory you are addressing will want a better explanation. But you probably will reach some number of lurkers.
I appreciate your motives a bit better. AZPaul3 has you sized up perfectly.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2018 11:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 3:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 790 of 1482 (833597)
05-24-2018 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by ICANT
05-24-2018 3:45 AM


Re: complexities don't always translate into analogies
I would hope that no one would believe the universe acts like raisins.
Nobody could tell that from reading your posts.
So how about coddling an old man and answer the questions I asked in this post.
Not playing your game. You can argue with Modulus and AZPaul3 if you are up to it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 3:45 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 794 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 1:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 791 of 1482 (833599)
05-24-2018 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 787 by ICANT
05-24-2018 3:03 AM


Re: Speed of Light vs. Expansion of the Universe
Yawn.
ICANT writes:
Where can I find a reference to the balloon analogy on that website?
ringo writes:
Use the "Find" function on your browser.
ICANT writes:
Why should I have to look up other peoples source? That is against site policy.
Have you forgotten your question ICANT?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 3:03 AM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 806 of 1482 (833679)
05-25-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 804 by GDR
05-25-2018 1:04 AM


Re: Meaning of life
IMHO it is far more likely that intelligence would have an intelligent root as opposed to the chance combination of mindless particles that have combined together to bring about conscious intelligent beings with a sense of morality. I can't prove that as we know, but in my mind it is logical.
You've said such things before, and I have to admit that I find this form of argument very unsatisfying. You are just layering belief on top of belief on top of how you feel. "To my mind it is logical," says absolutely nothing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by GDR, posted 05-25-2018 1:04 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 826 by GDR, posted 05-25-2018 7:55 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 807 of 1482 (833680)
05-25-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by ICANT
05-24-2018 1:06 PM


Re: complexities don't always translate into analogies
If you don't have any knowledge to share why do you hang around being an obstructionist? Seems like you are the one playing a game
At least I discuss honestly. I don't pretend that people said something that they did not and I don't misrepresent folks on the other side of the argument. If I play a game at least it is one with some scruples. You are willing to lie and/or dissemble if you think there is something to be gained. I am not willing to do that.
For those reasons, while I may point out some of your more inane offerings, I am not going to assist you with making them. Have a nice day.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2018 1:06 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Faith, posted 05-25-2018 11:54 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 810 of 1482 (833687)
05-25-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by Faith
05-25-2018 11:54 AM


Re: complexities don't always translate into analogies
This is false and I just answered one example of it yesterday where you misrepresented me as saying Catholics are not Christians
I did not say anything like that yesterday. If you can point to such a post, I will publicly proclaim that you are correct. But I suspect you have me confused with Jar.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Faith, posted 05-25-2018 11:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by Faith, posted 05-25-2018 1:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 819 of 1482 (833719)
05-25-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 813 by Faith
05-25-2018 1:07 PM


Re: Your misrepresentations
In Message 342 you were referring to me when you wrote
NN writes:
...the things you say about Catholics.
Faith, you are not telling the truth. Here is a more full quote of my actual comment from that message.
NoNukes writes:
I haven't pointed out any mere "slip-ups", and I haven't even bothered to debate the things you say about Catholics.
In short, I did not say anything about your claims about Catholics whatsoever. Is that a mistake on your part. Well, what you just did was quote half of my statement in an attempt to claim that I challenged you on whether Catholics are Christians. That distortion appears to me to be deliberate.
As for the difference between Nazi's and Liberal Nazi's, the distinction in how offensive those things might be is all in your head.
Epithet removed... If I am suspended for it, so be it.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by Faith, posted 05-25-2018 1:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by Faith, posted 05-25-2018 6:37 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 820 of 1482 (833720)
05-25-2018 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by ICANT
05-25-2018 2:56 PM


Re: Difference in 2D &3D objects
I believe a balloon that is laying on a table is a 2D object.
You believe that. But is it true? Are there, in fact, any real 2D objects you can point to? Even an uninflated balloon has a thickness, width, and length. A sheet of single-ply tissue paper is three dimensional. A line drawn on a sheet of paper is actually three dimensional. In fact, there are no 2D objects. But we are able to envision those objects by ignoring their actual third dimension at least for the purposes of discussion.
Somehow though you are willing to accept that an uninflated balloon represents an abstraction that is a two dimensional surface in a three-dimensional universe, but you balk at everyone else's abstractions. Is that really reasonable? Is it fair? Or is it more of the footdragging required to avoid honest debate.
I simply cannot accept that people are actually as incapable as you portray yourself. If in fact, you are, then why should anyone debate with you. And if you are not, then why should anyone debate with you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by ICANT, posted 05-25-2018 2:56 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 825 of 1482 (833725)
05-25-2018 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by Faith
05-25-2018 6:37 PM


Re: Your misrepresentations
...THE THINGS YOU SAY ABOUT CATHOLICS...
Your complaint is horse crap. You are parsing a refusal to discuss a topic into a statement about something. What my statement says is that I am not discussing your post about the subject at all. The context of the statement was that my remarks were about Protestants and their institutions.
And I did not make a new statement. I simply provided the text of my old statement in order to correct you and not to restate anything.
And to drag it even further, how does my statement translate to accusing you of saying anything about whether Catholics are Christians? Remember that that is your actual accusation. I'm not deleting this time. You are a complete idiot. Why the heck anyone here pretend that you are the least bit intelligent is beyond belief.
You can have the last word.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by Faith, posted 05-25-2018 6:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by Faith, posted 05-25-2018 8:47 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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