Religion or Science - How do they compare?

Whatever, Percy.abe: Sorry, I'll have to try to get back to this stuff later.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It's amazing how "the Fall" can be made up out of thin air - and in complete contradiction to what the Bible actually says.

The Bible doesn't "actually say" anything that contradicts the Fall, ringo, it's just not in-your-face about some things because it aims to keep the demon hordes and self-deceived humanity in the dark about God's plan. These things are "spiritually discerned" and though Satan is very smart he's blinded by his own evil. The Fall is what it's all about, and God's rescue from it, in order to bring Satan and his hordes to final justice and free the Creation from their influence.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

And you'll never get to the truth about the work of man if you ignore them. He just kept it quiet. Either way - Bible teachers do discuss the fact that the other gods might be treated as real as Yahweh in some parts of the Bible. Or maybe you've been seduced and the scholars are trying to explain the true nature of his merciful salvation.That's kind of the problem with religion vs science. There's no way to tell the difference between these kinds of hypotheses.

Of course it does:

quote:

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Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....

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Becoming like God is not a fall.

If you really believe that "knowing good and evil" was an improvement on our original condition, or that the Bible seems to say that, while we lost touch with our Creator and had to toil for a living among thorns and bear children in agony and suffer all kinds of sufferings, hideous diseases and death and murder and mayhem, you are stuck accepting a hostile environment as an improvement, a hostile God, a benevolent Satan who nevertheless tyrannizes us, a world of pain and death as opposed to the original Creation. You do all accept all that, don't you? You think it's normal. I guess I can't talk you out of it. You think that's a good thing, I don't, but you are stuck with it given your view of the eating of the apple. Anything to render the Bible meaningless I guess. In the end of course you just have to give up on it, no matter how clearly our actual reality fits the biblical description of its consequences. I'm sure you don't really feel you are "like God" -- either the true omnipotent good God or the evil God you think the Bible talks about.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You don't quote anything I said, so it's impossible to tell what you think I misunderstood. Given that I only asked questions seeking clarification it's hard to imagine what any misunderstanding might exist. I can only repeat my questions.How can you believe creationists have already proven the flood when you also believe the required evidence hasn't materialized yet?Why do you think forensics only works for the witnessed and historical, which seems in opposition to its true utility in unveiling information about the unwitnessed and unhistorical?Why do you think evidence from the distant past can't be analyzed?How do you know where the distant past begins? Or put another way, how distant is too distant and how do you know?--Percy

But I DO believe the "required evidence" has "materialized." I'm sure you derived that from something I said that you misread, but you got it wrong. Oh well, nothing new there.You said something about how I was being inconsistent about something, but I no longer care to track it down.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You rarely follow through on these promises to return to posts you haven't answered. Repeating the important points:

• Forensics requires neither witnesses nor historicity. It only requires evidence to analyze, just like science. Because it is a science.
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• When evidence has survived to the present, there is no limit to how far back in time forensics will work. The same is true of science.
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• Science avoids assumptions and tries to underpin its understandings with facts and evidence.

--Percy

You misunderstand the implications of "witnesses," you misunderstand just about everything I say, and yes I probably won't get back to trying to set you straight. It never works and there's always more coming at me. Hey maybe it's my fault, but since I've done the best I know how to do there's nothing I can do about that anyway. OH WELL.

Well, it's nothing new that you're contradicting yourself again. First you said Flood evidence was coming soon: Then just a bit later you said the evidence already existed: I summed it up this way in my Message 468: You ignored the other questions:Why do you think forensics only works for the witnessed and historical, which seems in opposition to its true utility in unveiling information about the unwitnessed and unhistorical?Why do you think evidence from the distant past can't be analyzed?How do you know where the distant past begins? Or put another way, how distant is too distant and how do you know?--Percy

What were you implying when you said forensics requires witnesses? I'm pretty sure my understanding of what you say is pretty much the same as everyone else here reading your posts. Given your history, everyone will believe your refusal to explain is because you can't. You'd be better served explaining what you meant. As long as you continue making claims that are unconnected to real world evidence and rational thinking then people will continue to question what you say. Ya think? Anyone can choose to base what they say on real-world evidence and rational thinking, so I don't think you're doing the best you can do.--Percy

No, many don't even believe in God, but they explain it all away by declaring that human wisdom is all we have and all we ever had and that through math and science all can be explained better than old fables and dogma can explain it.Lets assume for a moment that there actually is a true revelation inferred in and through the Bible and that the so-called dogma of our cult--which would be labled by jar as the CCoI (Christian Culture Of Ignorance) was actually close to being true. If so, keep in mind that the very words that you type here on this forum are the salvos of revelation from the Holy Spirit. That means that everytime you get mad, insulted, or angered by the comments of others (who are unknowing tools of satan) you actually make Christians look weak, desperate, and uncaring of real world evidence.
Now,lets take jar...since he is the logic, reason, and reality apostle to the atheists.
He claims to have no agenda and no bias...but his own quotes indict him: The agenda? Teaching that the Bible is just another book. Also teaching that all religions and beliefs are equally valid. The belief here is that human wisdom (ye shall be as gods...) is all that we have or ever will have. Worship focuses around communion with each other and doing as Jesus did...feeding the hungry, comforting the sorrowful and clothing the naked. This is good teaching except that it brings Christianity down to the level of humanism. Churches may as well be the United Way! In other words, humans simply need to man up and be responsible and learn to help each other and that this planet will make it if we do as Jesus taught. The agenda? That we are responsible and no God is gonna save us or bail us out. My only comment on that is that if the world fell into another war that caused mass poverty, death, and destruction, dollars will get you doughnuts that people would turn to the belief that Jesus will give us a way out. jar would preach that humans would have to pick themselves up and start over again. One side believes Jesus saves. The other side believes that humans and only humans can help (or hurt) themselves. The "dogma of this cult" is that jesus was a teacher who taught us what we could become and was a human as the rest of us.All of this wouldnt be so bad if jar and others had more respect for what the mainstream apologists and Christian leaders teach and believe. They dont have to agree with it so much as simply acknowlege that the majority of mainstream orthodox teaching supports a Divine jesus, a sacrifice on the cross, and relationship with God and others.Instead,. mainstream belief is belittled and ridiculed. "a carney sideshow...palming the pea...misdirecting the audiences attention"....while logic, reason, and reality are preached....which seems rational on the surface until one thinks out the implications of such a religion. Many of whom?
Reading the Bible without acknowleging God is like reading Moby Dick without believing in whales. I would argue that the Bible does have a connection and purpose. it is not simply some critical book of antiquity to be studied alongside the other beliefs.The Gideons summarize it well in the introductory statement in every Bible they place: The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

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Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

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It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

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Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

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It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Ignorance or the common adoption of the dogma instead of what the Bible actually says.

I don't teach anything Phat, I simply report. And what I actually say is that all religions are equally invalid. Religions are just things created by men. No Phat, there you go making stuff up again. It was the God character in the Bible that said we had gained the knowledge of the Gods.But yes, human wisdom really is all we can ever have. There is no other source of wisdom. If there is, please explain just how you get such wisdom? No Phat, again you are simply misrepresenting what I have said. Do you have ANY examples that show God or Jesus stepping in and fixing stuff? But again Phat, logic, reason and reality are NOT a religion, Thank God. No Phat, that's another example of a piss poor bumper sticker. It's like reading Moby Dick without believing in wumperdoodles. Whales can be seen, tested, counted, verified, tasted, used as fuel or perfume. But there is NO equivalent God. Word Salad Phat. Word salad.But religions can be a path, a guide and somewhat connected to reality at times.