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Author Topic:   Motley Flood Thread (formerly Historical Science Mystification of Public)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 106 of 877 (834047)
05-29-2018 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by PaulK
05-29-2018 5:29 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
By my understanding that would be a problem for your model. The walls wouldn’t be solid enough to stand as they are.
By my understanding they'd been formed under a mile of sedimentary layers, quite enough to compact them sufficiently to hold their shape after the softer ones had washed away. The Kaibab was apparently quite hard enough to hold its shape by then, after the mile's depth that had been above it washed away.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by PaulK, posted 05-29-2018 5:29 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 107 of 877 (834048)
05-29-2018 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
05-29-2018 5:19 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
Faith writes:
It wasn't rock, we're talking receding Flood here, it was just-deposited sediments, compacted but still wet and malleable.
Oops.
Sedimental mud becomes rock? Didn't I read you saying that can't happen?
And in this case sediment turns to rock without any heat or pressure from above. And in a few years. Was that a miracle?
And meanders form how? From a raging flood or because the river has slowed down so much that a slight obstacle will change its course?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 5:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 7:25 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 108 of 877 (834049)
05-29-2018 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Tangle
05-29-2018 6:36 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
It wasn't rock, we're talking receding Flood here, it was just-deposited sediments, compacted but still wet and malleable.
Oops.
Sedimental mud becomes rock? Didn't I read you saying that can't happen?
Didn't I just say I wasn't talking about rock? But that was probably Percy who said it can't happen. Compaction is not lithification, but it can form something pretty rock-like if it had a mile's worth of sedimentary layers on top of it. Lithification would take longer and it's a chemical process of cementation so at the end of the Flood we wouldn't yet have that kind of rock, but at the depth of a mile something just about as hard as rock. And it may even be that that degree of compaction does cause cementation. The articles I've read on it aren't completely clear on that point. But for water to cut into it I figure it had to still have some malleability like very hard mud.
And in this case sediment turns to rock without any heat or pressure from above.
It would help if you'd read the whole discussion here, it doesn't go back very far and I've said very clearly there was a lot of pressure from a stack of sedimentary strata a mile deep above the Kaibab Plateau. Heat is not necessary for lithification, you are thinking of metamorphic rocks not sedimentary rocks.
And in a few years. Was that a miracle?
What few years? The Flood started receding about ten months after it started as I recall though I could be off by a month or two, I'd have to check again, and I'm here picturing what it did as it receded. The strata were already formed, the highest layers still soft enough to wash away as the water receded, especially since I'm picturing the Kaibab uplift causing cracks due to strain at the highest levels. But the layers would have been increasingly compacted at increasing depth, the Kaibab limestone apparently being the level at which the compaction was sufficient for it to hold its shape and not break up. It formed a hard plateau, which became the rim of the Grand Canyon as well as the surface into which the meanders cut at the eastern end of the canyon.
And meanders form how? From a raging flood or because the river has slowed down so much that a slight obstacle will change its course?
This is explained over the last dozen or so posts, but to spell it out again: The receding Flood water washed away that mile depth of sedimentary layers above the rim of the Grand Canyon and after it had all washed away leaving the flat Kaibab plateau the water became rivers and streams running across the plateau and it is streams running across a flat surface that form meanders. A very wide stream cut very wide meander walls at first, then narrower walls as the water volumn dropped until eventually the water was gone leaving that little river you see at the bottom in the picture above/
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2018 6:36 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2018 9:04 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 109 of 877 (834050)
05-29-2018 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
05-29-2018 5:12 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
You left out an explanation of a critical question. How would a fludde produce narrow, deep, "incised meanders" as shown in the image you posted?
Meanders form where the flow is slow. For complicated but well-understood reasons, they erode the outer bank and deposit on the inner bank.
In soft unlithified deposits, that erosion/deposition moves the main channel outward and increases the curvature of the bend. The meanders don't get deep because they are moving horizontally over the terrain so they don't hang around on each particular plot so it can't erode the bottom much.
The end result is often an oxbow lake and cutting a new main channel. Happened all the time on Mark Twain's Mississippi.
But if the meanders are on hard lithified rock, the erosion/deposition cycle is very very slow. The meander spends much more time on each plot of land. It erodes material from its bottom, very slowly, and carries it downstream. As the water sinks lower the old outer and inner banks move down, and the meander doesn't erode the former banks any more. So the meander eventually gets deep with near-vertical walls.
Therefore the image above is of meanders cut through pretty hard rock.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 5:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 9:10 PM JonF has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 877 (834051)
05-29-2018 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
05-29-2018 7:25 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
But that was probably Percy who said it can't happen.
It was not Percy. You said something pretty close to soil and dirt not being able to become sedimentary rock, and I am sure that is what Tangle is calling you on. I don't know exactly what you meant when you said it, so I will leave it open for you to explain.
There is no way that Percy would have said that sedimentary mud could not become rock. That would be inane.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 7:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 9:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 877 (834052)
05-29-2018 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by JonF
05-29-2018 8:53 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
I've seen lots of animations along those lines. I guess you are objecting to something I said but I don't get your point. Nothing you said changes the apparent situation in the picture of a lot of water crossing a flat plateau and forming a stream that becomes a very wide meander that eventually becomes deeper and narrower. What is your objection to that?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by JonF, posted 05-29-2018 8:53 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 9:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 136 by JonF, posted 05-30-2018 9:59 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 162 by Percy, posted 05-30-2018 8:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 112 of 877 (834053)
05-29-2018 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
05-29-2018 9:04 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
Percy has many times objected to my claim that the strata after the Flood were hard enough to be cut into a canyon rather than collapsing, so if I said something that sounds different than that it must have been in some other context and I have no idea what it was. This current discussion seems to come off No. 10 on his list above Message 79 but it doesn't seem to be the same context so maybe the number is wrong.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2018 9:04 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2018 5:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 113 of 877 (834054)
05-29-2018 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
05-29-2018 9:10 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
I've seen lots of animations along those lines. I guess you are objecting to something I said but I don't get your point. Nothing you said changes the apparent situation in the picture of a lot of water crossing a flat plateau and forming a stream that becomes a very wide meander that eventually becomes deeper and narrower. What is your objection to that?
What Jon showed is that meanders don't start out wide as you said earlier. And they don't erode downward so much as laterally. It is not the nature of meandering streams to be turbulent with coarse gravel loads. Also, he shows that it takes time to create meanders.
And sheet wash does not just 'turn into curves'. First of all there is no evidence of sheet wash or catastrophic drainage. And when it turns into streams there is less water present to erode a deep canyon.
Your theory has holes enough to empty an ocean into.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 9:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 9:24 PM edge has replied
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 9:38 PM edge has replied
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 10:11 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 114 of 877 (834055)
05-29-2018 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by edge
05-29-2018 9:22 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
There is some question in my mind where the holes are located, but in any case are you actually defending the idea that that itty bitty little river that you say cut that enormous canyon also cut the meanders? And does that explain the coarse gravel loads or whatnot? Who said anything about turbulence? I have no idea what you are talking about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 9:22 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 10:14 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 115 of 877 (834056)
05-29-2018 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by edge
05-29-2018 9:22 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
Let's try this again:
What Jon showed is that meanders don't start out wide as you said earlier.
Well I'm sure you've never seen as much water as would have been running across the plateau after the Flood so we're not talking the kind of meanders you would have seen in today's world.
And they don't erode downward so much as laterally.
So what?
It is not the nature of meandering streams to be turbulent with coarse gravel loads.
Who said anything about turbulence with coarse gravel loads?
Also, he shows that it takes time to create meanders.
The little meanders you see forming today probably do take more time than the ones in the Grand Canyon. Again, do you think that little river cut that very broad width of that huge meander?
sheet wash does not just 'turn into curves'.
No, I assume it would split into rivers or streams first.
First of all there is no evidence of sheet wash or catastrophic drainage.
THe plateau itself isn't enough evidence of sheet wash? The canyon and the cliffs of the Grand Staircase aren't enough evidence of catastrophic drainage?
ABE: There's also evidence of sheet wash around the monuments in Monument Valley. /ABE
and when it turns into streams there is less water present to erode a deep canyon.
I'm not talking about the canyon proper here, just the meanders at its eastern end. And yes of course there would have been "less" water but in the context of the draining Flood that would still be a lot more water than you've ever seen on any plateau.
Your theory has holes enough to empty an ocean into.
I suspect it is a failure of your imagination and not my theory.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 9:22 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 10:38 PM Faith has replied
 Message 130 by RAZD, posted 05-30-2018 7:24 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 116 of 877 (834058)
05-29-2018 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by edge
05-29-2018 9:22 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
And take a look again at this picture:
There are levels and levels ln that picture, cliffs or walls similar to the walls of the meanders, where water would have run as its volume kept decreasing. Evidence of sheet wash between them seems to me that eventually formed a meander as it became a sheet and then a river on a flat place. Evidence of a receding worldwide Flood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 9:22 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 117 of 877 (834059)
05-29-2018 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
05-29-2018 9:24 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
There is some question in my mind where the holes are located, but in any case are you actually defending the idea that that itty bitty little river that you say cut that enormous canyon also cut the meanders?
Yes (sigh...)
That is why we have been saying that there were two main phases of river activity. One that set the meander pattern and then another that down cut the canyon.
And then of course, there is the modern canyon in which flows are regulated.
And does that explain the coarse gravel loads or whatnot?
Yes. Meandering rivers transport sediment as suspended silt and a bed load of sand with little gravel.
Who said anything about turbulence?
I did. There is much more turbulence in steeper stream gradients such as what we see in the Colorado now. Meandering streams are not as turbulent and carry larger detritus.
Your scenario does not match the development history of meandering streams. It has no evidence for break-out type flooding and it doesn't match the sediment types that I would expect to see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 9:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 10:19 PM edge has replied
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 10:39 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 118 of 877 (834060)
05-29-2018 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by edge
05-29-2018 10:14 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
Nothing you've said accounts for anything I see in that picture, particularly the breadth between the walls at the top of the meander. There is no way your little river caused that. Or the canyon. If it was a big enough river to do that then it fits MY scenario, not yours.
And if you're going to use jargon like "breakout type flooding" you have to explain what on earth it has to do with anything I said. Nothing that I can see.
And what does turbulence or lack of it have to do with anything I said? Nothing that I can see.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 10:14 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 10:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 119 of 877 (834061)
05-29-2018 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
05-29-2018 9:38 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
Well I'm sure you've never seen as much water as would have been running across the plateau after the Flood so we're not talking the kind of meanders you would have seen in today's world.
Neither have you. You are just making stuff up while I am comparing it with known features and processes.
THe plateau itself isn't enough evidence of sheet wash? The canyon and the cliffs of the Grand Staircase aren't enough evidence of catastrophic drainage?
I am a huge fan of catasrophic events. Millions of them.
Do you have any clue how erosion works? Until we started managing the flows, the Colorado would flood probably every year. And that doesn't count the temporary dams that formed in the past and still occur today.
The little meanders you see forming today probably do take more time than the ones in the Grand Canyon. Again, do you think that little river cut that very broad width of that huge meander?
Why not? The meander was established early in the history of the river. Downcutting occurred later.
No, I assume it would split into rivers streams first.
Yes, indeed; and the flows would be decreasing dramatically. The ability of this flood to erode has dissipated. It would look like a braided stream that has simply run dry.
But we do not see that braided stream deposit, do we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 9:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 10:56 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 120 of 877 (834062)
05-29-2018 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by edge
05-29-2018 10:14 PM


Re: Formation of walls quite clearly fits the Flood model
Geology is just plain wrong, edge. That canyon could not have been cut by that little river, and that huge meander could not have been cut by that little river. All the features in the canyon and in that picture fit my scenario and not yours. A HUGE amount of water is needed to account for all of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by edge, posted 05-29-2018 10:14 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Modulous, posted 05-29-2018 11:17 PM Faith has replied

  
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