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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 571 of 882 (834885)
06-14-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Tangle
06-14-2018 1:08 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
In order to point out a contradiction in her thinking.
The problem is that Faith is a Calvinist. Free will really is not compatible with Calvinism as has been discussed here many times. So what is your point?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 3:02 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 572 of 882 (834894)
06-14-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by NoNukes
06-14-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
NoNukes writes:
The problem is that Faith is a Calvinist. Free will really is not compatible with Calvinism as has been discussed here many times. So what is your point?
You'll just have to forgive me for not knowing what position everyone that calls themselves a Christian takes on these imaginary issues. I had assumed that freewill was a cornerstone of Christian thinking, if it's not I'll just add it to the long list of stuff that baffles me about what people can bring themselves to believe.
Faith has no free will is, well, interesting.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 1:40 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 573 of 882 (834898)
06-14-2018 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Tangle
06-14-2018 1:08 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Tangle, I don't know why but you keep imputing quotes to me that aren't mine, what's that all about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 574 of 882 (834899)
06-14-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Tangle
06-14-2018 3:02 PM


Grace and free will
You'll just have to forgive me for not knowing what position everyone that calls themselves a Christian takes on these imaginary issues. I had assumed that freewill was a cornerstone of Christian thinking, if it's not I'll just add it to the long list of stuff that baffles me about what people can bring themselves to believe.
Faith has no free will is, well, interesting.
Again you impute to me something NN said.
Certainly nobody expects you -- at least I don't expect you to understand all the shades of Christian theology, I just wanted you to take note that salvation by grace alone is biblical even though other positions may also take their cue from the Bible.
I really didn't want to get into a big discussion about this, just clarify that one point. But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation and not about everyday life where we choose all sorts of things. The idea is that we can't choose salvation, God does it all, "lest any man should boast."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 3:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 575 of 882 (834902)
06-14-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Faith
06-14-2018 4:03 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Faith writes:
Tangle, I don't know why but you keep imputing quotes to me that aren't mine, what's that all about?
I guess you're just habit forming.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 576 of 882 (834904)
06-14-2018 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Faith
06-14-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
Certainly nobody expects you -- at least I don't expect you to understand all the shades of Christian theology
Why should there be any more than one shade of Christianity? Could it be that you're all making it up?
I just wanted you to take note that salvation by grace alone is biblical even though other positions may also take their cue from the Bible.
It's what you say is biblical and what others say isn't. To my mind if it wasn't all a total fantasy, it would be black and white.
But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation
Right, and of course you don't see any contradiction of choosing salvation and rejecting free will? You know, the thing that allows choice?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 4:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 5:07 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 578 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 5:20 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 577 of 882 (834907)
06-14-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Tangle
06-14-2018 4:50 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Tangle writes:
Faith writes:
Certainly nobody expects you -- at least I don't expect you to understand all the shades of Christian theology.
Why should there be any more than one shade of Christianity? Could it be that you're all making it up?
No, it all does derive from the Bible itself, but people read with different degrees of attention and understanding and the relevant passages are not all in one place. Again, I showed with those quotes that there's plenty of biblical support for salvation by grace and not works, and that is all I wanted to bring to your attention.
Tangle writes:
Faith writes:
I just wanted you to take note that salvation by grace alone is biblical even though other positions may also take their cue from the Bible.
It's what you say is biblical and what others say isn't. To my mind if it wasn't all a total fantasy, it would be black and white.
Based on what?
But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation
Right, and of course you don't see any contradiction of choosing salvation and rejecting free will? You know, the thing that allows choice?
Eh? I'm saying we CAN'T choose salvation, right? And it's in that category of choice that free will doesn't apply because that's a high level spiritual/moral choice that fallen humanity doesn't have the ability to make since we lost all that at the Fall, though we can make all kinds of ordinary everyday choices on the level of the "flesh." God has to give us the spiritual perception to be able to choose salvation. I could probably find a good Bible-based theological discussion to clarify all this for you but I gather you aren't interested.
It really does all hang together, the Bible really is consistent but you do have to spend some time getting to know it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 5:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 578 of 882 (834908)
06-14-2018 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Tangle
06-14-2018 4:50 PM


Re: Grace and free will
It's what you say is biblical and what others say isn't. To my mind if it wasn't all a total fantasy, it would be black and white.
Did you mean to say "IF what you say is biblical THEN what others say isn't?"
If so then I'd answer yes, I would say the other positions aren't really biblical, although they can quote passages that seem to support them if you don't take the whole biblical context into account. If you do take it all into account I believe the Calivinist position is the truly biblical position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 4:50 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 579 of 882 (834910)
06-14-2018 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Faith
06-14-2018 5:07 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Faith writes:
No, it all does derive from the Bible itself, but people read with different degrees of attention and understanding and the relevant passages are not all in one place.
ie make what you want of it.
Again, I showed with those quotes that there's plenty of biblical support for salvation by grace and not works, and that is all I wanted to bring to your attention.
Any plenty of support that it isn't. Make what you want of it.
Eh? I'm saying we CAN'T choose salvation, right?
Language is a funny thing. Maybe I'm just too literal but when you said....
quote:
But now I also want to clarify that the Calvinist rejection of free will is about choosing salvation
...I ridiculously that that you meant you were choosing salvation.
And when you go on to say this...
quote:
God has to give us the spiritual perception to be able to choose salvation.
....i just thought you'd actually chosen to be saved?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 5:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:28 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 580 of 882 (834913)
06-14-2018 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by Tangle
06-14-2018 5:44 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Yes language can be a problem, and it looks like I didn't do the best job of being clear either. No, I'm trying to make the point that nobody can choose to be saved by our own natural means. If God saves us He's given us the spiritual discernment to be able to choose Him in return but it all comes from Him. I hope that's clear, if not I'd like to exit this thread anyway.
All I wanted was acknowledgment that there is plenty of biblical support for the salvation-by-grace-not-works position without getting into how much support there is for other positions, but yes I'd claim the support for my position is far more comprehensive and defensible than that for others. I just didn't want to get that deeply into this. Surely you can see from the quotes I posted, however, that there IS plenty of biblical support for my position. Just say yes and we can maybe get GDR to come back and I can get out of this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 5:44 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 9:02 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 581 of 882 (834917)
06-14-2018 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by Faith
06-14-2018 6:28 PM


Re: Grace and free will
No, I'm trying to make the point that nobody can choose to be saved by our own natural means.
That is what Christians on both sides of the issue believe. Your point does is not what distinguishes the Calvinist position from the non-Calvinist position. What the Calvinist belief is that the folks who are damned are damned before they set a foot on earth, and that they will not be saved by any means. The only folks who will be saved, if you let a Calvinist tell it, were apparently destined for that before their parents were even a gleam in their grandfather's eye.
Yes, we are saved by grace and through Faith, and the credit and glory belong to God. Not all Christians believe that, but certainly that belief is not restricted to Calvinists.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by GDR, posted 06-14-2018 10:10 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 583 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 11:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 582 of 882 (834919)
06-14-2018 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by NoNukes
06-14-2018 9:02 PM


Re: Grace and free will
From CS Lewis
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 9:02 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 583 of 882 (834921)
06-14-2018 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by NoNukes
06-14-2018 9:02 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Well grace through faith is what we were arguing about. since I'd said I had nothing to offer God and that He chooses losers and sinners. Also that we have nothing to do with choosing God, which would also be a personal merit tht earns salvation, but that God chooses us; it's what Tangle seemed to be saying was not biblical, and you kept telling him it's all because I'm a Calvinist, so that's what my verses demonstrate. The sovereignty of God in salvation, that you can't earn your salvation. If that isn't what you were saying please clarify.
But as for predestination, that too is biblical, and Calvinism certainly does not claim we can know who is predestined and who is not, that is known only to God, so Calvinists give the gospel to all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2018 9:02 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by NoNukes, posted 06-15-2018 1:53 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 882 (834927)
06-15-2018 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by Faith
06-14-2018 11:18 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Well grace through faith is what we were arguing about
No, that is not the dispute. We agree on that. What we disagree about is whether God offers men a choice to accept or reject salvation. You seem to believe that making such an offer is outside of God's power or grace. I do not. Further, it is easy to find Biblical support for exactly what you deny.
Of course, you also claim that people who find that support are misreading the Bible. But that is also exactly what those people would say about you. Of course, as you've said before, you are infallible in such matters.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 11:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:25 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 585 of 882 (834928)
06-15-2018 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by NoNukes
06-15-2018 1:53 AM


Re: Grace and free will
Nothing came up that I recall about God's offering a choice to accept or reject salvation. Of course He does. But that isn't what *I* was talking about. All I was saying was that we cannot choose, God has to give us the ability to choose at the time that He chooses us. He has to give us the faith, the ability to believe, the understanding of the gospel and so on. None of that is natural to us.
abe: Repentance too is a gift from God, as it says in Acts 11:18:
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
/abe
But of course we may be offered salvation and choose for or against it, but I'm talking about where the power comes from to choose for it. If it comes from us then we get credit for it and that's what the doctrine of grace but not works denies us. If our faith comes from ourselves that is a work for which we can take credit. But if we are saved entirely by God's grace then it all comes from Him and we can't take credit for any of it. I couldn't believe in what I knew about God, which admittedly wasn't much, but there was a point where I could and did believe, and I attribute that to God's giving me that gift at that time.
abe: (If anyone takes this as barring anyone from salvation who actually desires salvation, it has to be answered that the desire itself comes from God and anyone who actually wants to be saved can be saved. As Jesus said Whoever comes to Him He will not turn away. Those who believe none of it and don't want it aren't going to be disappointed, but anyone who does want it may have it.)/abe
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by NoNukes, posted 06-15-2018 1:53 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by NoNukes, posted 06-15-2018 9:02 AM Faith has replied

  
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