Religion or Science - How do they compare?

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Not necessarily. Some people "in the flesh" have an interest in spiritual things just naturally, or such an interest could be from God who is working on the soul toward salvation, and in any case I'd want to encourage it so that the person might yet pursue salvation

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According to Calvinism - as Tangle quoted - it can’t lead to Salvation unless God has already chosen the person to be saved. Calvinism allows no meaningful choice - God decides and that is it. God’s decision is not even based on foreknowledge that the offer will be accepted, let alone actual human choices - to think otherwise is classified as Arminian by Calvinists: And remember you endorsed the quote.

Is there anything beyond you that you consider Superior to your own intellect? Or are you the beginning and end of all things that you encounter and think about?

All the words you use I recognise but when they form sentences I don't get any meaning from them. They have an underlying mysticism that blurrs the words.There are many things superior to my own intellect in many areas. For example any second year university mathematical student has a greater understanding of mathematics than me but I have a greater understanding of, say, fishing.I am not the beginning or end of anything.I have no idea what you are trying to say. Try using plain language.

This is true but we aren't in a position to know that in any given case so we give the gospel and leave it to God, and encouraging any signs of interest could help. Yes I did and it's completely true. The idea of foreknowledge makes God into a powerless passive observer of our sovereign choices by which we could deserve credit, but scripture says God does it all. But we do have choices, we make them all the time, and God may give someone the spiritual ability to choose salvation and that is not for us to judge. Jesus told us to go into all the world and give the gospel because we have no idea whom God has chosen, we are just to leave all that to Him. People will respond or not to the gospel and that's all we need to know. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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This is true but we aren't in a position to know that in any given case so we give the gospel and leave it to God, and encouraging any signs of interest could help.

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That’s changing the subject. The point was that according to Calvinism God does not offer a meaningful choice to be saved or not. Even if the offer is made the choice has been decreed in advance and our desires are not a factor.You could argue that God controls our desires, one way or another but that hardly makes things better than God going against them.

From our human point of view we do have a meaningful choice and that's all that matters. Trying to second-guess God is fruitless.

And yes He does control our desires in the sense I've been saying, that He gives us the ability to choose salvation which otherwise we don't have in our fallen condition.

The human mind is a wonderful thing, it can believe two totally contradictory concepts without going insane.Of course, it might be insanity anyway.

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And yes He does control our desires in the sense I've been saying, that He gives us the ability to choose salvation which otherwise we don't have in our fallen condition.

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No. The point is that either our desires are ignored or they are forced to go in whatever direction God wants. Again there is no real choice. According to Calvinism. The decision is made in advance and we have no say.

No, He gives whomever he wills the ability to choose salvation, to believe the gospel, He regenerates these, gives them the new birth, but otherwise we follow our own fallen nature, which cannot choose such things.

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No, He gives whomever he wills the ability to choose salvation, to believe the gospel, He regenerates these, gives them the new birth, but otherwise we follow our own fallen nature, which cannot choose such things.

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Those who are chosen for salvation cannot refuse it. That is standard Calvinism. You’ve already admitted that those who are not can’t accept it.

Yes we cannot refuse it and for those of us who have received it that is immense rassurance though you make it sound like some kind of deterministic trap. No, when I was first saved I was often afraid my own stupidity could lead me away from God again, since I'd lived without Him for decades already, so the knowledge that I couldn't lose it was immensely comforting. I actually prayed that He wouldn't let me lose my belief in Him. I've always had the sense of having a free will that can make horrible choices because I've made so many in my life. You seem to be picturing some kind of robot-like existence even though you don't experience such a thing and neither do I. You are getting too caught up in a distorted theological theory.

Not doing that. What is going on here is that people are questioning the rationality of Calvinism. It is that doctrine that requires the double-talk about choices not being choices. Perhaps we should again post what Calvin himself said about the determinism. As I recall your response in the past has been to deny what Calvinists had to say about Calvinism and to brand those quotes as hyper-Calvinism.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

No it isn't the doctrine's fault, it is the usual problem that our fallen nature distorts it. That is really why we shouldn't even try to discuss it on a forum like this, but of course it keeps coming up and has to be discussed, and since I believe it is the most biblical doctrine that truly honors God I always have to try to defend it. Arminianism makes God weak and passive and directly violates the biblical theme of salvation by grace alone, giving power to human beings to choose which means giving us the credit that is due only to God. So I always have to try to defend Calvinism though it is a doctrine none of us can really grasp and that includes me.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There is no reason not to discuss it. The problem is that Calvinism does not make any sense. That is the reason why you end up having to deny what people, including Calvin, say about it.And with regards to your appearing to be foolish about it while defending your own understanding. That is how you appear on most topics here. Nothing special about Calvinism in that regard.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.