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Author Topic:   Motley Flood Thread (formerly Historical Science Mystification of Public)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 661 of 877 (835024)
06-16-2018 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by PaulK
06-16-2018 11:34 AM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
You have never explained the idea of erosion as a unit.
Explained it many times. See Message 419 The Grand Canyon itself. Various layered formations. The Monument Valley buttes, the hoodoos, the Grand Staircase etc etc etc.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 11:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by edge, posted 06-16-2018 12:04 PM Faith has replied
 Message 663 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2018 12:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1820 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 662 of 877 (835028)
06-16-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
06-16-2018 11:51 AM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
Explained it many times. See Message 419 The Grand Canyon itself. Various layered formations. The Monument Valley buttes, the hoodoos, the Grand Staircase etc etc etc.
So, is a 'block' the same as a 'unit'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 11:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 8:32 PM edge has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 663 of 877 (835029)
06-16-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Faith
06-16-2018 11:51 AM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
So erosion as a unit just means exposed cross-sections getting eroded? That’s really not evidence for anything significant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 11:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 664 of 877 (835050)
06-16-2018 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by edge
06-16-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
Yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by edge, posted 06-16-2018 12:04 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by edge, posted 06-16-2018 9:46 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1820 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 665 of 877 (835052)
06-16-2018 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 664 by Faith
06-16-2018 8:32 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
Yes
And your blocks are unchanging as far as size and composition?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 8:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 9:48 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 666 of 877 (835053)
06-16-2018 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by edge
06-16-2018 9:46 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
No.
Oops, depends on what you mean by "unchanging." They are what they are, they don't change. So if that's what you mean the answser is yes they are unchanging.
Realized I don't know what you mean by "unchanging." I'm sure they will go on eroding but that's the only change I can think of.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by edge, posted 06-16-2018 9:46 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by edge, posted 06-16-2018 10:49 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1820 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 667 of 877 (835055)
06-16-2018 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by Faith
06-16-2018 9:48 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
Realized I don't know what you mean by "unchanging." I'm sure they will go on eroding but that's the only change I can think of.
Fine.
All I mean is that they change in time. In size or composition, etc.
Just trying to figure out how someone could be so confused.
So when the GC Supergroup was deformed (faulted and tilted), they were still part of the block that contained the Paleozoic rocks above, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 9:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by Faith, posted 06-17-2018 7:52 AM edge has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Inactive Member


Message 668 of 877 (835057)
06-17-2018 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Percy
06-02-2018 11:22 AM


Walther's Law is not a process
minnemooseus writes:
Remember out favorite "Walther's Law" diagram:
The bottom left of this diagram illustrates the difference between lithostratigraphy and chronostratigraphy. As you go right to left, the lithostratigraphy (say, the sand unit) becomes progressively younger.
And the top surface of the various sediments are the "landscape" of the time.
It would probably also be useful to explicitly point out to Faith that by "landscape" you mean seascapes being created according to the principles of Walther's Law. These seascapes that become preserved in the stratigraphic record are not the landscapes that the sea transgressed across. Those landscapes are gone, ground away by active coastal waters into sand, silt, mud and clay. The constituent elements of the landscape are preserved as particles of sediment. For example, if the landscape was rich in some element like iron, then the marine sedimentary layers will include that element.
I interpret "landscape" to be the sums of all the "solid surfaces" of a given time. By "solid surfaces", I mean the top of geologic materials, below the atmosphere or whatever body of water. Topography and Bathymetry.
Topography - Wikipedia
quote:
Topography is the study of the shape and features of the surface of the Earth and other observable astronomical objects including planets, moons, and asteroids. The topography of an area could refer to the surface shapes and features themselves, or a description (especially their depiction in maps).
Bathymetry - Wikipedia
quote:
Bathymetry is the study of underwater depth of lake or ocean floors. In other words, bathymetry is the underwater equivalent to hypsometry or topography.
Now, per your "created according to the principles of Walther's Law". I still resist invoking Walther's Law as being a process. Recently I discovered a better terminology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deposition_(geology)#Null-point_hypothesis
quote:
The null-point hypothesis explains how sediment is deposited throughout a shore profile according to its grain size. This is due to the influence of hydraulic energy, resulting in a seaward-fining of sediment particle size, or where fluid forcing equals gravity for each grain size.[2] The concept can also be explained as "sediment of a particular size may move across the profile to a position where it is in equilibrium with the wave and flows acting on that sediment grain".[3] This sorting mechanism combines the influence of the down-slope gravitational force of the profile and forces due to flow asymmetry; the position where there is zero net transport is known as the null point and was first proposed by Cornaglia in 1889.[3] Figure 1 illustrates this relationship between sediment grain size and the depth of the marine environment.
quote:
The Null-point hypothesis has been quantitatively proven in Akaroa Harbour, New Zealand, The Wash, U.K., Bohai Bay and West Huang Sera, Mainland China, and in numerous other studies; Ippen and Eagleson (1955), Eagleson and Dean (1959, 1961) and Miller and Zeigler (1958, 1964).
Now, Faith's muddled scenario apparently involves sediment being eroded off the continents and being deposited at ocean shorelines. While I envision that the results of the Faith variation of the mainstream concept would look substantially different from the above graphic, I think that Walther's Law would still be valid. It's still a migrating environment.
Faith also invokes large sediment amounts being stirred up in the ocean basins and somehow being washed up into the near shore environment. While there are all sorts of problems with this scenario, I visualize that such might result in a sediment size distribution that goes from coarse to fine from seaward to landward (the opposite order of the "Walther's Law" model). I see this because of the sediment deposition fining as you get further from the ocean basin sediment source.
So, the final stratigraphy might be some sort of hybrid of the land sourced sediment model and the ocean basin sourced sediment model. I would expect that even such hybrid would still result in a Walther's Law relationship.
Now about a bit of Percy statement from message 556:
Percy, message 556, writes:
The ocean floor has not dropped. Surveys of the ocean floor after WWII in order to aid submarine navigation revealed a great deal of information about mid-oceanic ridges and sea floor striping and so on, but not an ounce of evidence for dropping sea floors.
As I understand it, the great sea transgressions and regressions in geologic history were indeed largely caused by ocean floor rises and falls. This is the reality that ties into the "catastrophic plate tectonics" fantasy. Over the years I've tried and failed to find good (or even mediocre) internet literature on this process. Perhaps to be discussed further in later messages.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Failure of proofreading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Percy, posted 06-02-2018 11:22 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by edge, posted 06-17-2018 10:35 AM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 683 by Percy, posted 06-17-2018 8:57 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 669 of 877 (835070)
06-17-2018 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 667 by edge
06-16-2018 10:49 PM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
So when the GC Supergroup was deformed (faulted and tilted), they were still part of the block that contained the Paleozoic rocks above, right?
Yes that is my theory/hypothesis of how angular unconformities are formed: that tectonic pressure buckles or tilts a lower section of strata beneath the strata above which remain horizontal, which in the case of the GC remained intact up to the Permian/Kaibab level, while strata above that level broke up and washed away; though in other cases they got broken up at a much lower level, such as at Siccar Point. I think this was a worldwide event, this tectonic pressure and it caused all the angular unconformities everywhere and most of the deformation of strata everywhere and even the major erosion events that left isolated buttes standing. Because it occurred at the same time as the receding of the Flood water. It's a nice theory really.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by edge, posted 06-16-2018 10:49 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by edge, posted 06-17-2018 10:05 AM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22695
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 670 of 877 (835081)
06-17-2018 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by edge
06-16-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
edge writes:
I'm sure that most of us find Faith's casual dismissals and misplaced air of superiority to be offensive.
I think for me it's more a sense of incredulity that views so obviously wrong could be so persistently resistant to facts from reality.
However, I think that we need not worry. Such distortions of reality are self-defeating. No one is going to be convinced by such anti-science denial that we see here, and if Faith wishes to cling to a distorted reality, we have the satisfaction of knowing that she represents but one person. An oddity, not a great hindrance to knowledge.
My concerns are based upon the effect of such thinking on science education. I agree that Faith's impact on science education is minimal to non-existent - even creationists can detect those parts of her ideas that are wildly impossible. The benefit of discussion with Faith is the honing of ones skills at countering fantasy-based thinking with reality-based evidence and reasoning, and the recognition that even that has only mild chances of success. You can send a flat-earther to the moon and back but he'll still believe the Earth is flat.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by edge, posted 06-16-2018 11:10 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1820 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 671 of 877 (835083)
06-17-2018 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by Faith
06-17-2018 7:52 AM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
Yes that is my theory/hypothesis of how angular unconformities are formed: that tectonic pressure buckles or tilts a lower section of strata beneath the strata above which remain horizontal, which in the case of the GC remained intact up to the Permian/Kaibab level, while strata above that level broke up and washed away; though in other cases they got broken up at a much lower level, such as at Siccar Point.
The fallacy there is that if the upper and lower parts of the block are deformed separately, are they still a block? I thought that you said they deformed and eroded as a unit, but your narrative here rejects that.
I think this was a worldwide event, this tectonic pressure and it caused all the angular unconformities everywhere and most of the deformation of strata everywhere and even the major erosion events that left isolated buttes standing. Because it occurred at the same time as the receding of the Flood water.
Perhaps you can describe this 'tectonic pressure'. What mechanism would cause a 'global scale' deformation?
It's a nice theory really.
A cute theory, perhaps. Something fit for a 'nice' science fantasy novel, but not a theory grounded in reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by Faith, posted 06-17-2018 7:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by Faith, posted 06-17-2018 3:52 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1820 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 672 of 877 (835084)
06-17-2018 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 668 by Minnemooseus
06-17-2018 2:20 AM


Re: Walther's Law is not a process
As I understand it, the great sea transgressions and regressions in geologic history were indeed largely caused by ocean floor rises and falls. This is the reality that ties into the "catastrophic plate tectonics" fantasy. Over the years I've tried and failed to find good (or even mediocre) internet literature on this process. Perhaps to be discussed further in later messages.
This is true and demonstrably so. We know that the oceanic crust slowly subsides away from the mid-ocean ridges based on depth of the abyssal plains and the subsidence of the Hawaii-Emperor seamount chain. So the principle of isostatic adjustments due to cooling and thickening of the oceanic crust is established.
It isn't hard to imagine that increasing the temperatures of the upper mantle over time will cause a rise in the elevation of the oceanic crust thereby displacing seawater across the continents (or cooling for the reverse effect).
This is probably the cause of the stratigraphic mega-sequences recognized in the geological record. These are global events even though the may not show up on all continents (as per Pressie).
I think what Percy was envisioning was a catastrophic collapse of the sea floor after flood waters were supposedly vented violently to the surface. Of course, this doesn't work. You can't just leave a vacuum where the water had resided ... the seafloor must collapse.
But this is an interesting topic even outside of the biblical flood debate. So many things come together with with grand theories such as mega-sequences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-17-2018 2:20 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Faith, posted 06-17-2018 4:55 PM edge has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1518 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 673 of 877 (835085)
06-17-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Faith
06-09-2018 7:53 AM


Re: one fault line stream tributary vs meandering canyon
I understand the basics of meander formation, RAZD. ...
Obviously you don't. They don't suddenly pop into existence.
... I just went looking at You Tube films of meanders, both actual and animations, and still have the same impression: they make smooth loops, they don't look to me anything like the course of the Colorado over the Kaibab plateau.
That is the end of the formation process.
They start as a little wiggle, one of many. Rivers are wiggly.
Dunning-Kruger. You haven't any knowledge of hydrodynamics, just enough of a cursory knowledge to think you are an expert. Which is a BIG surprise seeing as this is your modus operandi in all sciences.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Faith, posted 06-09-2018 7:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by Faith, posted 06-17-2018 3:55 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 674 of 877 (835086)
06-17-2018 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by edge
06-17-2018 10:05 AM


Re: Strata eroded or deformed in blocks proves Geo Column / Time Scale over and done with
The fallacy there is that if the upper and lower parts of the block are deformed separately, are they still a block? I thought that you said they deformed and eroded as a unit, but your narrative here rejects that.
No, I've specifically said that angular unconformities are NOT a block, specifically said that more than once. Angular unconformities are the ONLY exception to the rule I keep talking about, that LLhe strata were laid down before being eroded or deformed as a whole block or unit; said that many times, I guess you missed it. Angular unconformities are an exception. NOT a block/unit. ONLY exception.
Perhaps you can describe this 'tectonic pressure'. What mechanism would cause a 'global scale' deformation?
The splitting of the ocntinents was a worldwide event, that's what I'm talking about. A lot of tectonic bashing and crashing going on. The breaking up must have been fairly jolting, but then there was the subduction on the west side of the Americas that pushed up mountains etc. I happen to think it occurred in conjunction with the beginning of the receding of the Flood, because of the effects like the cutting of the Grand Canyon and Grand Staircase and the other massive erosion events in that area; and the dramatically deformed rocks in other places would be a natural result of such a tectonic bashing.
Yes a very nice theory. Puts together a lot of phenomena in one nice neat elegant package. Yes, cute.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by edge, posted 06-17-2018 10:05 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by edge, posted 06-17-2018 6:34 PM Faith has replied
 Message 745 by Pollux, posted 06-20-2018 1:40 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 675 of 877 (835087)
06-17-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by RAZD
06-17-2018 2:51 PM


Re: one fault line stream tributary vs meandering canyon
Why on earth would I think I'm an expert, I merely know the basics of how meanders form from reading descriptions and watching videos and animations. It's not rocket science. I certainly said nothing about them "popping into existence" for pete's sake.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by RAZD, posted 06-17-2018 2:51 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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