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Author Topic:   Motley Flood Thread (formerly Historical Science Mystification of Public)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 787 of 877 (835295)
06-21-2018 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 786 by PaulK
06-21-2018 12:54 AM


Re: subjective interpretation
But I'm not objecting to the wreckage of the strata, I'm objecting to the general appearance of wreckage and desolation. The whole world is wrecked in ways I don't think we can ever really grasp. The strata are what is left of the sediments from the original world, the fossils are the dead creatures the Flood killed. The world of today is built on top of that worldwide cemetery and although God has allowed a great deal of recovery (well, considering all the inhospitable places not really that great) there can never be anything again remotely like the original Creation with its extravagant fertility and beauty and order.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2018 12:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2018 1:13 AM Faith has replied
 Message 797 by Percy, posted 06-21-2018 9:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 789 of 877 (835297)
06-21-2018 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by PaulK
06-21-2018 1:13 AM


Re: subjective interpretation
Erosion makes it possible to see the wreckage more clearly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2018 1:13 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2018 1:23 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 791 of 877 (835299)
06-21-2018 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 790 by PaulK
06-21-2018 1:23 AM


Re: subjective interpretation
Golly maybe they would pay attention when I say I didn't mean that instead of insisting that I do.
If there hadn't been erosion there would be flat surface on top of all the strata. Tectonic deformation and erosion expose the strata. But it's ALL wreckage, strata plus deformation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2018 1:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 798 of 877 (835331)
06-21-2018 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 794 by Pollux
06-21-2018 7:59 AM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Putting volcanism under the water to wash away the evidence does not work, because the world's volcanoes are obviously built above the water because they are still here.
well but the water was a few miles above sea level at the height of the Flood, meaning at the point I'm guessing it started to recede, triggered by or accompanied by the tectonic movement and volcanism. Much volcanism even today is underwater though it may also surface onto the land. So SOME was no doubt under water then too. We didn't stop having volcanoes of course and after the Flood they went on erupting on land and spread the ash you are talking about.
And not just the volcanoes but the land they are on is also substantially built by volcanoes - think Indonesia, Japan, etc.
Hawaii.
Ash from historical eruptions in the last 2000 years or so can be found around the world. Where is the massive layer that would be produced by jamming all this volcanism into a short time?
That's why I postulated that much of it could have been under water at the beginning.
Most of these volcanoes are caused by tectonic plate subduction. The plate has to go several 100 km deep to melt and produce magma, which then has to work its way up to the surface to erupt.
Well, but wouldn't the very first movement of subduction apply pressure that would affect everything beneath it -- amd besides the subduction is caused by the movement of this enormous continent which in itself would affect the deep crust, wouldn't it? -- and wouldn't that be enough to trigger a volcano deep underground? I don't get what you mean though about having to "melt" anything: isn't magma just there beneath the crust ready to be released if something disturbs the crust above it? And of course I don't know how long it would take to work its way up but the stuff is hot and melts rock and also pushes up mountains so why would it take some enormous length of time?
The sheer physics of this means it takes a long time.
Well, please forgive me but time according to standard geological thinking is just way too long for most processes.
For it all to happen at the end of the Flood, picture miles of plate diving underground every day, melting like crazy at a rate that defies physics, and the magma speeding up through 100s of km of rock to erupt out of the way before the next bit comes.
The first volcanoes between Europe and the Americas would have occurred in the Atlantic, Right/ And would have occurred deep under the Atlantic, first in the rift between those continents. There are a lot of dead volcanoes along the rim of the Atlantic. But around the Pacific they are very active where the plates are subducting. The first ones would have been under water.
Faith, it ain't gonna work!
Well, you could be right, but it does seem to me there are other ways of explaining it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by Pollux, posted 06-21-2018 7:59 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by Pollux, posted 06-21-2018 9:30 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 800 of 877 (835345)
06-21-2018 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by Pollux
06-21-2018 9:30 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Lithospheric plates ... move at about 10cm per year.
I appreciate your information, thank you, and obviously you know what you are talking about, and I'll give it more thought, but..... I always have a problem with the uniformitarian assumption, that what is happening today is what always happened -- and in this case the speed of the movement you describe. I know it is assumed that the speed required by YEC timing is physically impossible, but someone who believes in YEC timing because it comes from God isn't going to be able to accept that and will look for alternatives that make it possible. So the speed we see now has to be the end speed of a movement that started out much faster and has slowed to its present rate. And there have to be unknown mitigating factors involved to explain why it didn't burn up the planet as it is claimed that it would. Ice age being one perhaps. I'm sure you want to throttle me now.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by Pollux, posted 06-21-2018 9:30 PM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by Pollux, posted 06-22-2018 8:08 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 801 of 877 (835356)
06-22-2018 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 799 by Pollux
06-21-2018 9:30 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
The thickness of the descending plate means it takes a long time for heat to penetrate it to melt it.
This is the first time I've ever heard of the subducting plate having to melt and being the source of the magma. I've always understood that the magma is always present beneath the crust and that a volcano is the releasing of that magma to rise through the rock to the surface.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by Pollux, posted 06-21-2018 9:30 PM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by Pollux, posted 06-22-2018 5:05 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 805 of 877 (835408)
06-23-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 803 by Pollux
06-22-2018 8:08 AM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Hi Faith
You maybe do not understand the scale of what is required to speed up geologic processes to fit in the Flood year.
You go on to talk about tectonic movement but I don't fit that into the Flood year, it starts at the end of it.
The deduced movements of the tectonic plates forming and reforming supercontinents are known in good detail back 600,000,000 years and to a lesser degree much earlier. So an acceleration factor of many hundreds of million is required.
I'm aware of the whole idea of forming and reforming of continents, but on the Flood model there is only room for one, and the accepted timing of the breakup of Pangaea I've shown to be wrong because there should be tectonic disturbance in the Jurassic if it were true and the UK cross section shows no such disturbance, the strata continue through the Tertiary on the same pattern as all the rest..
You cannot stretch tectonic movement out into recorded history because people would have noticed the earthquakes and volcanic effects.
But we do notice them. The Flood model merely suggests that most of them occurred before the population had grown enough after the ark for it to be a major problem. And I'd argue that there must have been many mitigating factors anyway at the very beginning such as the fact that it started out under water, and then the ice age would have been another factor suppressing the worst effects.
It is not just the movements that have to be fitted in. There is the associated volcanism, and the laying down of sedimentary rocks formed from the products of now-eroded-away volcanoes.
I've acknowledged the volcanism every time I describe the Flood scenario. Not sure what the sedimentary rocks imply in your framework.
Add in the fossils which have to be formed from animals and plants which show that continents now separated were once joined.
I'm well aware of that and don't see a problem.
Don't forget the rapidly changing RA decay needed without cooking everything to produce the consistent RM dates; and madly oscillating magnetic pole reversals.
Yes and I don't try to deal with these things, but I assume they need rethinking outside the uniformitarian frame of reference and that will eventually be done.
Would you like to know about the problems from large igneous provinces for YEC?
I've encountered that before; it's not as big a problem as you think it is. The problem with all this is your basic paradigm. Since you have all the usual assumptions and have no interest in reassessing them you are just going to continue with the usual ideas about the Flood and leave it to the YECs to try to deal with it. That's understandable but you are throwing the products of many different disciplines, understood within the prevailing paradigm of course, throwing them at a few YECs, and while some are no doubt fairly well quipped for that task,, I'm certainly not in any position to try to answer it all, and I don't try.
That's why I limit my argument to a few things I think show the Flood and don't try to deal with the multiplicitous stuff you all throw at us, such as you are doing in this post. I've proved to my own satisfaction that there is enough evidence for the Flood events and their timing to expect that all the rest of the problems invented by the Old Earthists will fall into place eventually.
You really wish to cling to YEC but defending it is analogous to stopping a waterfall with a rake.
See above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Pollux, posted 06-22-2018 8:08 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by edge, posted 06-23-2018 12:12 PM Faith has replied
 Message 836 by Pollux, posted 06-23-2018 9:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 806 of 877 (835409)
06-23-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 744 by edge
06-19-2018 10:14 PM


Re: evidence based reasoning
There is no point in continuing to bring up the order of the fossils. I've said all I have to say on it. There is an order that is consistent but what that order is interpreted to mean is imaginary. And since I believe I've proved the Flood timing and events well enough I don't feel any need to try to answer anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by edge, posted 06-19-2018 10:14 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 808 of 877 (835411)
06-23-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 804 by Percy
06-23-2018 10:19 AM


Re: Time for Summary Mode?
Some of those you list I've already answered, and some, like Tangle's, don't deserve to be acknowledged let alone answered.
But I'm ready for Summation Mode. This thread became too unwieldy for me to deal with long ago.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Percy, posted 06-23-2018 10:19 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 811 of 877 (835418)
06-23-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by edge
06-23-2018 12:12 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
I guess if it's comforting to surround yourself with all your wealth of facts and evidence and just sit there counting it all, go for it. It's just a matter of time before the Flood will wash it all away.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by edge, posted 06-23-2018 12:12 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 812 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 12:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 818 by edge, posted 06-23-2018 1:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 813 of 877 (835427)
06-23-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 812 by jar
06-23-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Most obviously the result of the Flood or the tectonic events afterward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 12:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 823 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 2:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 834 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2018 5:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 815 of 877 (835430)
06-23-2018 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 814 by ringo
06-23-2018 12:53 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Why do you have the silly idea it should be in the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 816 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 1:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 819 of 877 (835438)
06-23-2018 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by ringo
06-23-2018 1:09 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
Why do you have the silly idea it should be in the Bible?
Why do you have the silly idea that the Bible wouldn't mention such a momentous event immediately after and directed related to the momentous event of the Flood?
Obviously because it wasn't momentous. The ark was floating on a sea that stretched from horizon to horizon. The boat may have rocked some or maybe not, nothing momentous. The Bible does mention earthquakes when they affect people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 2:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 822 of 877 (835442)
06-23-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by edge
06-23-2018 12:12 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
First of all, you once again commit the error of extending the geology of Great Britain to the rest of the world.
Great Britain happens to be right where the split occurred and probably suffered a lot of bashing and crashing in ways that aren't evident. Perhaps it wasn't even an island before the split? But since the event was worldwide, as are the strata, I don't see th problem of extending the example.
Beyond that, you make a superfluous point since there are no Jurassic rocks in the parts of GB that are close to the Paleozoic or Mesozoic plate boundaries. I would expect little disturbance.
The deformation seen in the island had to be the result of that tectonic action, and if so there would not have been any strata laid down after the Jurassic at the time of its occurrence according to the standard idea of when Pangaea broke up, and if that were the case, after it broke up and the strata continued depositing according to the usual time scale, the strata of the Tertiary would have deposited flat, and would have deposited ON TOP OF the strata already present and already deformed. Instead they are part of the whole stack of strata, deformed as a unit with all the rest of them.
In fact, we do see that the lower Cretaceous sediments in southern GB overlie a nonconformity in the Jurassic in southern GB.
No idea what this is supposed to mean, or any of the rest of what you say here:
Both occurrences however are interpreted as transgressive deposits infilling NW-SE palaeovalleys cut into Jurassic basement.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/...e/abs/pii/S0016787808801617
The point is that there was little deformation of the Jurassic sedimentary rocks of Great Britain for a reason. They were deposited after the earlier Caledonian Orogeny and still remained far from the continental rifting that formed the Atlantic Ocean. These Jurassic sedimentary rocks are just as I would expect them.
Far from the continental rifting that formed the Atlantic Ocean???? Great Britain is where the rifting had to have occurred, there is nothing between it and North America except the Atlantic Ocean, and that means the Atlantic Ridge developed right on what is now its western edge. Here I've got people telling me all this movement would have affected Noah who was floating on the sea over a mountain range in the Middle East at the time, but you are saying Great Britain which was where the continental rift occurred was not disturbed?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by edge, posted 06-23-2018 12:12 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by edge, posted 06-23-2018 3:06 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 824 of 877 (835444)
06-23-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by jar
06-23-2018 2:27 PM


Re: Tectonic bashing and crashing
The Flood laid down all the strata seen in any of the formations that are composed of strata, and then they were shaped by tectonic and erosive forces afterward,. though the salt was obviously carved out by human beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 2:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 2:36 PM Faith has replied

  
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