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Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I’ll just touch in the most important point.
According to Calvinism who is saved and who isn’t is purely a matter of God’s will. Our choices don’t enter into it. So when you say:
quote: You are implicitly going against Calvinism.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: According to Calvinism - as Tangle quoted - it can’t lead to Salvation unless God has already chosen the person to be saved. Calvinism allows no meaningful choice - God decides and that is it. God’s decision is not even based on foreknowledge that the offer will be accepted, let alone actual human choices - to think otherwise is classified as Arminian by Calvinists:
This view is opposed to the Arminian view that God's choice of whom to save is conditional or based on his foreknowledge of who would respond positively to God.
And remember you endorsed the quote.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That’s changing the subject. The point was that according to Calvinism God does not offer a meaningful choice to be saved or not. Even if the offer is made the choice has been decreed in advance and our desires are not a factor. You could argue that God controls our desires, one way or another but that hardly makes things better than God going against them.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: No. The point is that either our desires are ignored or they are forced to go in whatever direction God wants. Again there is no real choice. According to Calvinism. The decision is made in advance and we have no say.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Those who are chosen for salvation cannot refuse it. That is standard Calvinism. You’ve already admitted that those who are not can’t accept it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: You could fairly call it a trap since you have no real choice. That’s what Calvinism says.
quote: I’m just pointing out that you disagreed with Calvinism by implying we had a real choice about salvation. Calvinism says we don’t. If you think that implies a robot-like existence that’s your idea, not mine.
quote: So you regard Calvinism as a distorted theological theory. And presumably inferior to your own opinions.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
You originally said:
If you have even a little interest you can ask God to increase it and He will, He doesn't act against our desire to be spiritually renewed or saved.
But - according to Calvinism - our desires are irrelevant. God chooses. That is all that counts. I’d add that for anybody not chosen for salvation it has to stop somewhere. They cannot achieve salvation because God chooses not to allow it. Can they have even a little interest ? Will God increase it if they do ? Where does it stop ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And of what worth is that if it can’t lead to salvation?
quote: The whole process. It has to stop somewhere short of salvation.
quote: According to Calvin God arranged for that fallen condition. But even without that, if salvation requires God’s aid and God withholds it, God is preventing that person from being saved.
quote: I don’t know whether it is in Calvinism or not but it seems to be implicit in your idea. If God starts helping someone and then decides to stop because he doesn’t want them to succeed thst looks an awful lot like an active rejection to me.
quote: Which is a rather awkward saying for Calvinism. Regardless of that, can a person not selected for salvation come to Jesus? If they can’t - and you pretty much have to say that - it’s inapplicable. If they can aren’t they going to be cast out ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Therefore - according to Calvinism - you were wrong. God only answers the prayers of those he has already decided to save.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I was specifically and explicitly talking about those who were not earmarked for salvation. But I will bet that there are people who show an interest but don’t make it. You seem a pretty obvious candidate.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That’s your assumption. But there are enough prominent deconversion stories out there to say that it is very unlikely to be true. And plenty of badly-behaving Christians out there who show no signs of regeneration. Not even understanding the Bible.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: The reason why there is no way to change it is that there is a whole lot of evidence. You yourself have provided large quantities. There are people who have believed - very strongly - and still changed their minds and had quite a lot of trouble for their pains. And there are people who certainly seem to have an interest but are thoroughly in religious matters as well as secular. These are facts that aren’t hard to find.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: i think you’ll find that I object to misrepresentations of the Bible quite frequently, too. And of course some of my objections to Biblical opinions are themselves Biblical.
quote: Which is theology. The factual question of what actually happens is a different question.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And there you go again, rejecting the Bible in your pride and arrogance.
quote: In your opinion.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Sure Faith. You don’t want to read anything that’s actually Christian.
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