Religion or Science - How do they compare?

I’ll just touch in the most important point.According to Calvinism who is saved and who isn’t is purely a matter of God’s will. Our choices don’t enter into it.So when you say:

quote:

---

If you have even a little interest you can ask God to increase it and He will, He doesn't act against our desire to be spiritually renewed or saved.

---

You are implicitly going against Calvinism.

quote:

---

Not necessarily. Some people "in the flesh" have an interest in spiritual things just naturally, or such an interest could be from God who is working on the soul toward salvation, and in any case I'd want to encourage it so that the person might yet pursue salvation

---

According to Calvinism - as Tangle quoted - it can’t lead to Salvation unless God has already chosen the person to be saved. Calvinism allows no meaningful choice - God decides and that is it. God’s decision is not even based on foreknowledge that the offer will be accepted, let alone actual human choices - to think otherwise is classified as Arminian by Calvinists: And remember you endorsed the quote.

quote:

---

This is true but we aren't in a position to know that in any given case so we give the gospel and leave it to God, and encouraging any signs of interest could help.

---

That’s changing the subject. The point was that according to Calvinism God does not offer a meaningful choice to be saved or not. Even if the offer is made the choice has been decreed in advance and our desires are not a factor.You could argue that God controls our desires, one way or another but that hardly makes things better than God going against them.

quote:

---

And yes He does control our desires in the sense I've been saying, that He gives us the ability to choose salvation which otherwise we don't have in our fallen condition.

---

No. The point is that either our desires are ignored or they are forced to go in whatever direction God wants. Again there is no real choice. According to Calvinism. The decision is made in advance and we have no say.

quote:

---

No, He gives whomever he wills the ability to choose salvation, to believe the gospel, He regenerates these, gives them the new birth, but otherwise we follow our own fallen nature, which cannot choose such things.

---

Those who are chosen for salvation cannot refuse it. That is standard Calvinism. You’ve already admitted that those who are not can’t accept it.

quote:

---

Yes we cannot refuse it and for those of us who have received it that is immense rassurance though you make it sound like some kind of deterministic trap.

---

You could fairly call it a trap since you have no real choice. That’s what Calvinism says.

quote:

---

You seem to be picturing some kind of robot-like existence even though you don't experience such a thing and neither do I

---

I’m just pointing out that you disagreed with Calvinism by implying we had a real choice about salvation. Calvinism says we don’t. If you think that implies a robot-like existence that’s your idea, not mine.

quote:

---

You are getting too caught up in a distorted theological theory.

---

So you regard Calvinism as a distorted theological theory. And presumably inferior to your own opinions.

You originally said: But - according to Calvinism - our desires are irrelevant. God chooses. That is all that counts.I’d add that for anybody not chosen for salvation it has to stop somewhere. They cannot achieve salvation because God chooses not to allow it. Can they have even a little interest ? Will God increase it if they do ? Where does it stop ?

quote:

---

God definitely responds to our desires if we appeal to Him to do so. We can't drum up the faith for salvation, that requires His regenerating us, but we can have desires and if we present them to Him He will answer.

---

And of what worth is that if it can’t lead to salvation?

quote:

---

I'm not getting this. WHAT "has to stop somewhere?"

---

The whole process. It has to stop somewhere short of salvation.

quote:

---

Where is it said that Calvinism means "God does not allow" salvation? It's always put as a positive: God brings about salvation, otherwise people are simply in their fallen condition.

---

According to Calvin God arranged for that fallen condition. But even without that, if salvation requires God’s aid and God withholds it, God is preventing that person from being saved.

quote:

---

There is no active REJECTION of anyone who comes to Him in such a way, that's not in Calvinism at all.

---

I don’t know whether it is in Calvinism or not but it seems to be implicit in your idea. If God starts helping someone and then decides to stop because he doesn’t want them to succeed thst looks an awful lot like an active rejection to me.

quote:

---

As Jesus said, Anyone who comes to Me I will not cast out.

---

Which is a rather awkward saying for Calvinism. Regardless of that, can a person not selected for salvation come to Jesus? If they can’t - and you pretty much have to say that - it’s inapplicable. If they can aren’t they going to be cast out ?

quote:

---

If He will answer your prayer He will grant you salvation.

---

Therefore - according to Calvinism - you were wrong. God only answers the prayers of those he has already decided to save.

quote:

---

Anyone who has an interest, or a desire, toward salvation, which is what I thought you were saying, is earmarked for salvatio.

---

I was specifically and explicitly talking about those who were not earmarked for salvation.But I will bet that there are people who show an interest but don’t make it. You seem a pretty obvious candidate.

quote:

---

Most of those would show no interest or desire for it at all, and any who seem to wouldn't really have that desire, just maybe a fleeting interest.

---

That’s your assumption. But there are enough prominent deconversion stories out there to say that it is very unlikely to be true.And plenty of badly-behaving Christians out there who show no signs of regeneration. Not even understanding the Bible.

quote:

---

Well, there's no way I can see to change that kind of opinion

---

The reason why there is no way to change it is that there is a whole lot of evidence. You yourself have provided large quantities.There are people who have believed - very strongly - and still changed their minds and had quite a lot of trouble for their pains.And there are people who certainly seem to have an interest but are thoroughly in religious matters as well as secular.These are facts that aren’t hard to find.

quote:

---

I'm sorry for the ways I fall into the flesh but some of what you object to is not that but quite biblical opinions you just don't like.

---

i think you’ll find that I object to misrepresentations of the Bible quite frequently, too. And of course some of my objections to Biblical opinions are themselves Biblical.

quote:

---

There's no way to assess the other examples. The theology I consider to be Calvinistic says you can't lose your salvation so that would mean that no matter how deeply involved a person had been, his falling away is a sign that it was all of the flesh and he wasn't really born again. The reasoning I've seen about the Bible by such people certainly seems to confirm that explanation

---

Which is theology. The factual question of what actually happens is a different question.

quote:

---

Your claim that I misrepresent the Bible reflects your own lack of understanding.

---

And there you go again, rejecting the Bible in your pride and arrogance.

quote:

---

Theology is a codification of the truths of the Bible, which if correct would correctly explain the facts we are discussing.

---

In your opinion.

Sure Faith. You don’t want to read anything that’s actually Christian.