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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 781 of 882 (835386)
06-22-2018 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 778 by GDR
06-22-2018 12:51 PM


Re: heretics
Today there is a "See Inside" feature attached to the book at Amazon, which I didn't see yesterday, and another review I didn't see which is a little clearer than the others, a reader who gives it two stars and titles her comments "culturally sensitive theology." She writes:

Rutledge reveals her discomfort with the orthodox position of penal substitution as a necessary work of Christ on the cross. Painfully conscious of the "bloody" punishment that the cross represents, historically & theologically, she tries to uncouple its punitive implication from Jesus' suffering. That God's mercy cannot be shown to us without His justice does not seem to matter to her as a matter of logic, even after spending many pages explaining the seriousness of sin & its implication in God's eyes.

To be uncomfortable with penal substitution is to be uncomfortable with Christianity itself because that is what the cross is all about. I wonder what she makes of the term "salvation" since that would have to be one of those words a liberal fills with different content than an orthodox traditional Christian does. Is Jesus God Incarnate, the Second Person of the Trinity? Are those even words she uses? And if she does in what sense, some kind of intellectualized sophistical liberal sense or the traditional sense? Does she believe in a literal Hell? Does Jesus' death on the cross save us from it?

Well, I can't afford the book right now but maybe my curiosity to see her answers to these questions, which I'm sure at this point will turn out to be serious heresy, will lead me to buy it sometime in the future.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by GDR, posted 06-22-2018 12:51 PM GDR has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 782 of 882 (835388)
06-22-2018 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 778 by GDR
06-22-2018 12:51 PM


Re: heretics
Still fascinated by this book I read another review, one I'd already read but now I have a framework for it knowing that Rutledge can't embrace penal substitution, which is the same thing as being unable to embrace Christ and Christianity.

So I read in the No. 1 Positive Review:

As we see the magnitude of the death of Christ, we are drawn into the heart of God. Rutledge insists: “Christians do not simply look to the cross of Christ with prayerful reverence. We are set in motion by its power, energized by it, upheld by it, guaranteed by it, secured by it.”

This is a lot of typical "liberal Christian" totally empty verbiage, which is what I'm now gathering characterizes Rutledge's book. It must take a lot of concentration to avoid embracing the true meaning of the cross, which is penal substitution, in favor of a lot of other supposed values which amount to a lot of empty verbiage.

Each of the sentences I quoted from that review is sheer contentless gobbledygook. Drawn into the heart of God? By the "magnitude" of Christ's death? Do Christians look at the cross with "prayerful reverence?"

No, we look to the Cross primarily with GRATITUDE for God's love and mercy to us that He sacrificed His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall have everlasting life. REAL everlasting life, not some kind of empty emotionalistic gutted bunch of words.

What on earth does any of this mean? We are "set in motion" by it? You mean something like spinning like a top perhaps? By it's "power?" What sort of power would that be? Verbal power? Emotional power? Certainly not REAL power, the sort Paul talked about in Romans:

For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation for the Jew first but also the Greek.

Even those words can sound empty in the context of Rutledge's book and she's probably quoted them with as much verbose meaningless emptiness as she can manage to stuff into them too. You have to be a traditional believer to know Paul is talking about a REAL power of a REAL salvation from a REAL Hell by a REAL death of a REAL God-Man.

Well, I don't think I need to read the book now, GDR. I'm sorry anyone takes this stuff seriously.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by GDR, posted 06-22-2018 12:51 PM GDR has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by jar, posted 06-22-2018 7:21 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 784 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2018 2:34 AM Faith has taken no action
 Message 785 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2018 2:52 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 783 of 882 (835389)
06-22-2018 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 782 by Faith
06-22-2018 7:10 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

Still fascinated by this book I read another review, one I'd already read but now I have a framework for it knowing that Rutledge can't embrace penal substitution, which is the same thing as being unable to embrace Christ and Christianity.

Writing more checks that simply cannot be cashed again Faith.

Only in the Christian Cult of Ignorance and Dishonesty might "... knowing that Rutledge can't embrace penal substitution, which is the same thing as being unable to embrace Christ and Christianity."

The rest of us know that position is nothing more than a cheap marketing gimmick designed to con the gullible and that totally diminishes any worth or value of Jesus life and ministry.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Faith, posted 06-22-2018 7:10 PM Faith has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 5:38 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 784 of 882 (835391)
06-23-2018 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 782 by Faith
06-22-2018 7:10 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

I'm sorry anyone takes this stuff seriously.

Yes Faith me too. But at least you now know we we don’t take the stuff you say seriously either.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Faith, posted 06-22-2018 7:10 PM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 785 of 882 (835392)
06-23-2018 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 782 by Faith
06-22-2018 7:10 PM


Re: heretics
Sure Faith. You don’t want to read anything that’s actually Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Faith, posted 06-22-2018 7:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 786 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 4:50 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 786 of 882 (835393)
06-23-2018 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 785 by PaulK
06-23-2018 2:52 AM


Re: heretics
You've never actually defined what you consider to be Christian that I recall. Apparently this book seems to you to be Christian, does that mean you particularly favor Liberal Christianity? Can you say exactly what it is you regard as Christian? Perhaps name someone you think of as a prime representative of Christianity, or a school or theology or doctrine or church or whatever you would identify. I know what GDR thinks, but do you share his definitions or something else?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2018 2:52 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2018 5:04 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(4)
Message 787 of 882 (835394)
06-23-2018 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 786 by Faith
06-23-2018 4:50 AM


Re: heretics
quote:

You've never actually defined what you consider to be Christian that I recall.

Christianity is pretty broad, but nominal Christians like yourself don’t appreciate that. You are obsessed with dogma which really isn’t what Christianity is about at all.

Whether liberal or conservative you really should understand that a lot of doctrine isn’t solidly nailed down, and condemning people for disagreeing with your favoured views isn’t Christian at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 4:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 5:07 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 788 of 882 (835395)
06-23-2018 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 787 by PaulK
06-23-2018 5:04 AM


Re: heretics
All right, so you don't really have a worked-out positive definition, what you have is a strong sense of what it isn't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2018 5:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2018 5:27 AM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 789 of 882 (835396)
06-23-2018 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by Faith
06-23-2018 5:07 AM


Re: heretics
I’m saying that Christianity is hard to define because it includes so much. But that doesn’t mean that there are no limits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 5:07 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 790 of 882 (835397)
06-23-2018 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 783 by jar
06-22-2018 7:21 PM


Re: heretics
In defense of Faiths position:

jar writes:

Only in the Christian Cult of Ignorance and Dishonesty might "... knowing that Rutledge can't embrace penal substitution, which is the same thing as being unable to embrace Christ and Christianity."

The rest of us know that position is nothing more than a cheap marketing gimmick designed to con the gullible and that totally diminishes any worth or value of Jesus life and ministry.

There is no such thing as a "Christian Cult of Ignorance and Dishonesty". This is a creation of your own bias and the views you market. Whoever "the rest of us" is it is not a group with any sort of consensus. Looking at the evidence, what Faith is "marketing" is in line with traditional beliefs.
Wiki article on penal substitution.
In your defense, the article does state that "in scholarly literature, it has been generally recognized for some time that the penal substitution theory was not taught in the Early Church. The ransom theory of atonement in conjunction with the moral influence view was nearly universally accepted in this early period."

St.Augustine is hardly regarded by scholars as a member of a cult of ignorance and dishonesty, and you should be called out for attempting to paint Faith into such a corner without examining the evidence.

To assert that early Christianity was a cheap marketing gimmick only holds water as a baldfaced assertion without evidence. There is no evidence that anyone was selling anything.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by jar, posted 06-22-2018 7:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 791 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2018 6:15 AM Phat has replied
 Message 793 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 9:36 AM Phat has seen this message
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 Message 798 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 791 of 882 (835398)
06-23-2018 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 790 by Phat
06-23-2018 5:38 AM


Re: heretics
Consider this Phat. If you have to accept a doctrine formed during the Reformation it be a Christian, there were no Christians before the Reformation.

Remember that you are defending Faith when she says that refusing to accept the Penal Substitution view of atonement is “is the same thing as being unable to embrace Christ and Christianity.”

Are you going to defend Faith on that point or admit that she is wrong ? Are you really going to say that the early Christians were “unable to embrace Christ and Christianity“ ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 5:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 792 of 882 (835400)
06-23-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 779 by Faith
06-22-2018 4:33 PM


Re: heretics
OK. This is from the interview in Christianity Today.
quote:
Why is there so little preaching and teaching on the Crucifixion today?

It’s complex, but I identify two reasons. The first is an almost wholesale retreat from the penal substitution theory, which was an unfortunate development in late 18th- and early 19th-century Protestantism. It held the field for a while, especially in evangelical circles. It was overwrought and overly rationalized and taught in a way that sabotaged the unity of the Trinity [as if the Son were placating the wrath of the Father]. It is not in the spirit of the Passion narratives.

Second, people don’t want to hear about sin, suffering, evil, or judgment. The African American church has something to teach us here. They’re not afraid to talk about judgment. People who have suffered under tyrannical, cruel, brutal regimes understand the need for judgment.

American Christianity, as Richard Niebuhr pointed out long ago, has tended to preach a gospel without judgment and a Christ without a cross. This is an old problem. We want to be happy. We want to be positive. We want to overlook the almost unbelievable problems we face today. Yet this is not the case for the poorest of the poor. They know there’s a need for judgment and for a heavenly deliverer.

You downplay penal substitution but not substitutionary atonement altogether. Why?

You’re correct about substitution. I certainly argue that the theme of Jesus substituting himself, the innocent one, for us the guilty must not be allowed to be lost.

Does judgment involve punishment? Well, maybe. We certainly think of it that way in our courtrooms. But I don’t hear much in the Old Testament about punishment. I hear a great deal about judgment. In Isaiah, we read that the chastisement was laid upon him, yes. It’s imaginative, though. We’re not asked to imagine punishment. We’re asked to imagine this miraculous thing that is happening in the gift of the Servant, who is being put to death. I argue that the horrible death envisioned for the Suffering Servant and the horrific death suffered by Jesus Christ respond to the gravity of sin. Sin must be judged by a righteous God. That is our hope.

What greater hope is there than to know that God will judge and redeem? He will judge us for all that we have done that is wrong, and he will redeem us from it. Who really wants to deny that there is something wrong with us and with the world that needs to be put right? That is the theme, not punishment per se. It’s the need for redemption out of all that is wrong.

That’s why the word justification is so important, because justification, or rectification as some prefer now, means God is setting right all that has been wrong.



He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 779 by Faith, posted 06-22-2018 4:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 795 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:07 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 793 of 882 (835401)
06-23-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 790 by Phat
06-23-2018 5:38 AM


Re: heretics
This is no longer 450AD Phat in case you had not noticed.

Early Christianity's ignorance is reasonable but cannot excuse today's Christian Willful Ignorance and Dishonesty.

AbE:

StAugustine writes:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens and the other elements of this world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and relative positions… Now it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of the Holy Scriptures, talking nonsense on these topics, and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.

Edited by jar, : See AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 794 of 882 (835403)
06-23-2018 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 790 by Phat
06-23-2018 5:38 AM


penal substitution
Thanks Phat.

Penal substitution has biblical support:

Here's a quote from the Gospel Coalition:

PSA is explicit in the Servant Song of Isaiah 53, which delivers a penal substitutionary perspective on both the atonement and the work of God’s servant. The four Gospels either explicitly quote or implicitly reference the Servant Song more often than any other OT passage. As R.T France observes, the entire trajectory of Jesus’ earthly ministry as recorded in Scripture is an embodiment of the suffering servant who’s life culminated in a cross and death, before climaxing in a resurrection:

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:5-6)

PSA feature prominently in Paul’s letter to the Romans where the apostle depicts it as God's answer to the guilt and wrath brought on by our rebellion God. The great turning point in Romans is the exegesis of the gospel in 3:21-26, where Paul explains how God’s gift of righteousness, comes through faith in Jesus Christ and by his propitiatory death on the cross. As J.I. Packer notes:

“With the other New Testament writers, Paul always points to the death of Jesus as the atoning event, and explains the atonement in terms of representative substitution – the innocent taking the place of the guilty, in the name and for the sake of the guilty, under the axe of God’s judicial retribution”
(J.I Packer, Knowing God)

The concept of penal substitution is implicit in the Old Testament image of the sacrificial lamb and the scapegoat that was released into the desert bearing the sins of the people. Jesus is presented as the true Lamb of God in many places in the New Testament. His being sacrificed for us mneans He was sacrificed in our place to pay for our sins, which was the function of the animal sascrifices in the OT.

Ligonier Ministries gives a pretty thorough account of the various views of the atonement over the centuries, arguing that penal substitution is the only completely satisfactory interpretation. The whole discussion is too lengthy to copy out here but here is the conclusion in a nutshell:

it is vital that we contend for an account of the atonement which views it as penal (that Christ satisfied the penalty of the law, as the righteousness of the Father demanded) substitution (that he underwent this penalty in our place). Any other model of the atonement will both fail the test of biblical witness, and leave us without an adequate plea for forgiveness and acceptance with God.

There are other references both pro and con on the Google page for "Is penal substitution biblical?"


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 795 of 882 (835404)
06-23-2018 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 792 by GDR
06-23-2018 9:33 AM


Re: heretics
thanks. What she says doesn't completely do away with penal substitution and at least she acknowledges the importance of the atonement as substitutionary, which is better than I expected. I suspect there is some implicit waffling on the meaning of terms involved but for now I'll just take it at face value.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 792 by GDR, posted 06-23-2018 9:33 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by GDR, posted 06-23-2018 8:02 PM Faith has replied

  
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