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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 536 of 882 (834413)
06-05-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by GDR
06-05-2018 2:19 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I'm not at all sure how to respond. Would you accept that Christ's teaching that we should love our neighbour as ourself is universally true?

Yes, I would accept that as a principle. But please don't make it about me. I just gave you my opinion of an argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by GDR, posted 06-05-2018 2:19 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by GDR, posted 06-06-2018 5:43 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 555 of 882 (834833)
06-13-2018 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by Faith
06-13-2018 12:09 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
I couldn't believe what I'd read about religion or Christianity, really couldn't, so when I finally did I know it was not my choice, I know God had mercy on me and gave me that gift and I am eternally grateful. I suppose some people become Christians in a sense for a while out of some idea it is comforting but I don't see how they could last long. This life is full of joy, but it is not full of fun and sometimes it is downright miserable from a human point of view.

Your statement shows the lack of empathy for which you are quite famous. Not everyone's experience is the same as yours or the same as mine. But it is quite clear that you cannot entertain, let alone understand, how any "real Christian" could be different from you.

Small wonder that you think your way is the only correct way.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Faith, posted 06-13-2018 12:09 PM Faith has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 557 of 882 (834837)
06-13-2018 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Tangle
06-13-2018 1:25 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
Woops, there goes free will. There goes morality.

Yep. Faith is a Calvinist.

Although to be clear, free will is pretty slippery concepts and lots of non-religious folks have problems with it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 1:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 2:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 569 of 882 (834883)
06-14-2018 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Tangle
06-13-2018 2:07 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
NoNukes writes:

Although to be clear, free will is pretty slippery concepts and lots of non-religious folks have problems with it.

Tangle writes:

For the very good reason that it's another religious invention that doesn't actually exist.

You are not alone in believing that. But didn't you just complain to Faith that her invocation of Calvinism did away with free will? What is the point if you don't believe in free will anyway?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2018 2:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 571 of 882 (834885)
06-14-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Tangle
06-14-2018 1:08 PM


Re: Empathy and epigentics
In order to point out a contradiction in her thinking.

The problem is that Faith is a Calvinist. Free will really is not compatible with Calvinism as has been discussed here many times. So what is your point?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2018 3:02 PM NoNukes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 581 of 882 (834917)
06-14-2018 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by Faith
06-14-2018 6:28 PM


Re: Grace and free will
No, I'm trying to make the point that nobody can choose to be saved by our own natural means.

That is what Christians on both sides of the issue believe. Your point does is not what distinguishes the Calvinist position from the non-Calvinist position. What the Calvinist belief is that the folks who are damned are damned before they set a foot on earth, and that they will not be saved by any means. The only folks who will be saved, if you let a Calvinist tell it, were apparently destined for that before their parents were even a gleam in their grandfather's eye.

Yes, we are saved by grace and through Faith, and the credit and glory belong to God. Not all Christians believe that, but certainly that belief is not restricted to Calvinists.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 6:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by GDR, posted 06-14-2018 10:10 PM NoNukes has seen this message
 Message 583 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 11:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 882 (834927)
06-15-2018 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by Faith
06-14-2018 11:18 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Well grace through faith is what we were arguing about

No, that is not the dispute. We agree on that. What we disagree about is whether God offers men a choice to accept or reject salvation. You seem to believe that making such an offer is outside of God's power or grace. I do not. Further, it is easy to find Biblical support for exactly what you deny.

Of course, you also claim that people who find that support are misreading the Bible. But that is also exactly what those people would say about you. Of course, as you've said before, you are infallible in such matters.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by Faith, posted 06-14-2018 11:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:25 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 587 of 882 (834935)
06-15-2018 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:25 AM


Re: Grace and free will
Nothing came up that I recall about God's offering a choice to accept or reject salvation. Of course He does.

What you are saying is completely incompatible with Calvinism. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If humans can choose, then their actions have an impact.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:07 PM NoNukes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 595 of 882 (834958)
06-15-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Faith
06-15-2018 3:29 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as saying that we have the ability to choose.

As a matter of fact, it does. I presume that God's offer does not result in his words returning to him void and without meaning.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Faith, posted 06-15-2018 3:29 PM Faith has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 600 of 882 (834969)
06-15-2018 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by Phat
06-15-2018 7:14 PM


Re: Grace and free will
Explain yourself further. Set up a scenario and show that what Faith is proposing involves no real choice.

Is that necessary? Is it really too difficult to understand that presenting a choice to a sentient being requires that the chooser be able to pick? And that offering something that cannot really be picked means there was no bona fide offer?

Why don't you illustrate that two plus two equals four? Or how about asking Faith to explain the conundrum that she has presented?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Phat, posted 06-15-2018 7:14 PM Phat has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 628 of 882 (835000)
06-16-2018 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by Faith
06-16-2018 7:01 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
From our human point of view we do have a meaningful choice and that's all that matters. Trying to second-guess God is fruitless.

Not doing that. What is going on here is that people are questioning the rationality of Calvinism. It is that doctrine that requires the double-talk about choices not being choices.

Yes we cannot refuse it and for those of us who have received it that is immense rassurance though you make it sound like some kind of deterministic trap.

Perhaps we should again post what Calvin himself said about the determinism. As I recall your response in the past has been to deny what Calvinists had to say about Calvinism and to brand those quotes as hyper-Calvinism.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 7:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 8:28 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 630 of 882 (835002)
06-16-2018 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 629 by Faith
06-16-2018 8:28 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
No it isn't the doctrine's fault, it is the usual problem that our fallen nature distorts it. That is really why we shouldn't even try to discuss it on a forum like this,

There is no reason not to discuss it. The problem is that Calvinism does not make any sense. That is the reason why you end up having to deny what people, including Calvin, say about it.

And with regards to your appearing to be foolish about it while defending your own understanding. That is how you appear on most topics here. Nothing special about Calvinism in that regard.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 8:28 AM Faith has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 632 of 882 (835005)
06-16-2018 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 629 by Faith
06-16-2018 8:28 AM


Re: Calvinism continued
Arminianism makes God weak and passive and directly violates the biblical theme of salvation by grace alone,

1. Arminianism being wrong does not make Calvinism correct.

2. Salvation is by grace through faith.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 06-16-2018 8:28 AM Faith has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 796 of 882 (835406)
06-23-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by Faith
06-23-2018 11:00 AM


Re: penal substitution
The concept of penal substitution is implicit in the Old Testament image of the sacrificial lamb and the scapegoat that was released into the desert bearing the sins of the people.

I think most Christians would agree with most of that sentence, however, as is the case with many doctrines or concepts, there are differences in belief and subtle things that are harder to defend scripturally. The quoted scripture would support almost all of the more widely held doctrines of substitutionary atonement.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:00 AM Faith has taken no action

  
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