REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?

We need to take responsibility for our fellow man because your God doesn't.

I won't argue. To me its a bit like when my Dad taught me to ride a two-wheeler. He didn't hold the bike but he was alongside me should it wobble. You may argue that there is no Dad running along beside us so we best learn to steer ourselves. I may argue that I believe He is there...just not doing everything for us.

Phat writes: And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us?

What ever happened to "free will"?

Phat writes: Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?

Yes. Is that a bad thing?

Phat writes: Are we so stuck on our own evolved wisdom that we think we need evidence before proceeding with a belief?

Please learn the difference between evidence and belief.

Phat writes: Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?

ringo writes: Yes. Is that a bad thing?

I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God. Others will remain convinced that there is no magic bullet and will attempt to put Humpty Dumpty together yet again for another try at doing it ourselves.

Phat writes: I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God. Others will remain convinced that there is no magic bullet and will attempt to put Humpty Dumpty together yet again for another try at doing it ourselves.

Why is it that you Christians are forever forecasting an apocalypse? Why the pessimism?

Is it a requirement of Christianity to believe the worst all the time? Despite, in general, things getting overall better.

Come on, Tangle. Every charlatan and priest knows you can't sell bogeyman insurance without there being an ever present bogeyman. What bigger bogeyman can there be than the immanent threat of Ever-Lasting-Death^TM in the Lake of Fire^© for those Unsaved^®?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Why is it that you Christians are forever forecasting an apocalypse? Why the pessimism?

Because of biblical prophecy of God's judgment coming against the whole planet at the end of time, and these days it looks like it's getting closer by the minute if you know what to look for. Christians do often make the mistake of predicting the time, and that should never be done, but it does look like it's getting closer by the minute.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Faith writes: Because of biblical prophecy of God's judgment coming against the whole planet at the end of time, and these days it looks like it's getting closer by the minute if you know what to look for.

You people hve been saying that for 2,000 years. And over and over again, you're wrong.

Not only that, all the evidence is against you. The general direcTion is improvement. Undeniable improvement in the lives of people.

Christians do often make the mistake of predicting the time, and that should never be done

Only because it makes Christians look bloody stupid and utterly wrong, time after time. Because it's factual and ineoscapabably wrong.

but it does look like it's getting closer by the minute.

No it doesn't - things are in fact getting better. You're a weird one.

Things getting better is due to past blessings. Spiritual effects take a long time to run their course which is shown over and over in biblical history. What we see is the increase in hatred of God and His Law and the establishment of laws actually protecting violations of God's Law. The crunch could come all of a sudden.

Faith writes: Things getting better is due to past blessings.

That's called either a flat out contradiction of your 'everything is getting worse' mantra or an attempt at having your cake and eat it. Actually both.

Spiritual effects take a long time to run their course which is shown over and over in biblical history.

What we see over history are improvements in our life and no spiritual effects at all.

What we see is the increase in hatred of God and His Law and the establishment of laws actually protecting violations of God's Law.

What we see is people getting on with their lives without worrying about supersticious nonsense. I'm totally unaware of any god hatred; simply god total absence. Like fairies.

The crunch could come all of a sudden.

But it seems that no matter how long and how hard you and your predecessors pray for it, it never happens.

Phat writes: To me its a bit like when my Dad taught me to ride a two-wheeler. He didn't hold the bike but he was alongside me should it wobble.

If you're going to use the father analogy - and the Bible uses it so it's hard to escape - you should take it to its logical conclusion. Does the father prop up the son forever?

Phat writes: I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God.

That's just the old no-atheists-in-foxholes ploy. In fact, I think the opposite is true: In bad times - e.g. war - people are less likely to believe in gods, not more. They are more likely to ask why a god would let such things happen. They might wish there was a god to save them but they don't really believe it will happen.

Does the father prop up the son forever?

As long as my Dad was alive He would have had my back should I ever have needed it. He did not coddle me, but he would never have left me to fend for myself should I have asked for his help.

Phat writes: As long as my Dad was alive He would have had my back should I ever have needed it. He did not coddle me, but he would never have left me to fend for myself should I have asked for his help.

This all leads back to Message 13 where you said, "And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility."

Wouldn't your father also insist that you take responsibility?

Phat writes: And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us?

What ever happened to "free will"?

Your whole argument seems to be that even if God is real and loving, you will likely freely reject a relationship/communion with Him.

While I agree that it seems unfair that this dooms you (and negates true free will) I again use the analogy of oxygen. One can choose not to breathe it, but it is, in fact, the only gas that will support our life. I never figured out why you are so stubborn in regards to this growing up analogy....you seem to take pride in not needing any help whatsoever. And we all know how bad pride can be.

Phat writes: I again use the analogy of oxygen. One can choose not to breathe it, but it is, in fact, the only gas that will support our life.

Unless you can demonstrate that I can't live without your God, that's a poor analogy.

Phat writes: I never figured out why you are so stubborn in regards to this growing up analogy....you seem to take pride in not needing any help whatsoever.

You could try paying attention to what I have told you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever.

It's that I can't count on your God to help me.