Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity

Of course you are. No Calvinist sees it that way. I understand that you think your logical abilities, not to mention integrity, honesty and so on, are superior to any Calvinist's of course, but it's at least possible that you are wrong. It's entirely your doing. Calvinism does no such thing.

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Of course you are. No Calvinist sees it that way.

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The implications are pretty clear. If I’m wrong you have to show it.

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I understand that you think your logical abilities, not to mention integrity, honesty and so on, are superior to any Calvinist's of course, but it's at least possible that you are wrong.

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I think that most Calvinists don’t think about it, and those that do are prey to cognitive dissonance. But if they have answers, bring them on. Let’s settle this with reason.

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It's entirely your doing. Calvinism does no such thing.

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I have made the case that it does.

Something can't be both predestined AND changeable. Pick one.

What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established.

The answer is simply in knowing that God is always righteous, good, just and trustworthy even when His judgments are so severe we can hardly bear the thought of them. We believe that because we believe the Bible that shows us that in so many ways. There's no way to prove any of it to you, you either believe the Bible's testimony to God's perfect justice, goodness and mercy or you don't.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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The answer is simply in knowing that God is always righteous, good, just and trustworthy even when His judgments are so severe we can hardly bear the thought of them.

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So basically the answer is doublethink. Insisting that God is righteous, good, just and trustworthy even though your other beliefs say otherwise.

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There's no way to prove any of it to you, you either believe the Bible's testimony to God's perfect justice, goodness and mercy or you don't.

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Of course I’m making no claim about that. I’m just pointing out the implications of Calvinist theology - as I told you. I’m not a Calvinist, and if I were still Christian it’s Calvinism I would throw out.

or either way I fixed it for you.Gays exist. Always have, always will. There are many observed instances of gay animals: it is natural.That's reality.Gay Marriage is legal. That's a fact. That means that a majority of people are in favor of it, including many (non-fundamentalist) Christians.(Fundamentalist) Christianity doesn't get to impose mere beliefs on people, especially when those beliefs are not founded on facts.Fundamentalist Christianity wanting to impose those beliefs on other people is an attack on those people, some of which are Christians that don't hold such beliefs.That's reality.It is as much of "an attack on Christianity" as the age of the earth -- as shown by multiple avenues of evidence -- is WAY OLDER than 6,000 years {like over 4 billion years old}. There are many (non-fundamentalist) Christians that have no problems with the age of the earth.You do not get to include all Christians in your argument unless you reflect the beliefs of all Christians.When you say You are using non-fundamentalist Christians and their beliefs, people that still overwhelmingly dominate the American social landscape. The US is no less Christian socially than in the days of the founders.This is just you being absurd. There are no laws forcing or enforcing pagan beliefs on people that I am aware of. Can you cite any?The US, by the Constitution, is a secular government, and what we have are secular laws, laws that show no preference for any religion. ( ... and those that do show a preference are in violation of the US Constitution)

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U.S. Constitution
Article VI

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The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

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Amendment I

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

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underline for emphasis.The US government has always been a secular government. Under the constitution no religion is given preference and all beliefs are respected, equally.Again, gay marriage is legal. If you don't believe gay marriage should happen, don't have one. But if you refuse to bake a cake or provide flowers for a gay marriage, that is you using your religion to attack people that do not hold your beliefs. Not the other way around.There have always been people that don't hold your beliefs, and their always will be.That's reality.Enjoy

If you're going to say things like that, why are we discussing anytthing? In your Alice in Wonderland world words have no meaning or any meaning you like.And, incredibly, you are now saying that what god predestines, humans can change. Apart from the utter stupidity of the obvious contradiction, it also strikes me that it's heresy. So we have absolutely no idea what god's intent is and moreover we can't know. Yet you know you're saved and you've spent the last 15 years explaining his will.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

No, that is not what I said. From our point of view we can change but that isn't going to change God's predestination. Just think a little, Tangle, it isn't THAT hard.

And of course you missed the point. All you say may be true but what that means is that Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law. We will either find ways to avoid it or if we can't and are met by it head-on we will have to suffer the consequences. That's the Reality, RAZD. That isn't exactly freedom of religion. But I don't think society cares about freedom of religion any more. Oh maybe for Muslims and Satanists. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

God's justice that you call monstrous is in fact righteous and good and just though fromn our point of view it seems unnecessarily harsh. His ways are not our ways, He is not a human being and He sees everything from a much higher perspective. You judge Him from our human feelings because we are not in a position to see things from His point of view. But scripture tells us His judgments are righteous. You either believe it or you don't.

Translates to "everything is predestined whether we know it or not".

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Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law.

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You keep saying that but you never produce a law that you’d actually be disobeying.

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God's justice that you call monstrous is in fact righteous and good and just though fromn our point of view it seems unnecessarily harsh

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That’s hardly an accurate presentation of my points. Try this: Calvinism implicitly claims that God is monstrously unjust - and the harshness is far from the worst thing about it.And until you actually address my reasoning my case stands.

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You judge Him from our human feelings because we are not in a position to see things from His point of view. But scripture tells us His judgments are righteous

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Then either scripture is incorrect or Calvinism is.

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You either believe it or you don't.

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You seem to be trying to do both.

Let your case stand, I'm fine with that. You are going to stick with it no matter what anyway.