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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: why does Paul go on about not being ashamed to preach a crucified messia The obvious answer is because he failed. He wasn't the messia. That why the Jews are still waiting. It's why the ressurection story had to be invented and why it's now so important for Christians. The simple facts are that a man was killed, stayed killed and the claims he made about a second coming didn't happen. The whole thing failed. Hence Paul's shame - he was flat out wrong but had to carry on with the claim. He's was just doing what Faith does now believing something despite the evidence and spinning stories to make it fit the belief.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: What facts? I haven't noticed a second coming, have you?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: The idea that the disciples made any of this up is even more absurd since they were quite intimidated by Jesus' death and stayed secluded for fear until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, and then they knew the truth about His death and resurrection, after which they boldly proclaimed it. Just another weak story invented to cover up the fact that the 'god' was afterall simply mortal. And that the prophecies failed and remain failed.
The Second Coming, by the way, is still future, but a lot of us feel it can't be very far off. It's very obvious from the bible itself that Jesus's followers expected the second coming pretty immediately. Didn't happen and people like you have been forecasting it to be 'soon' for 2,000 years. Hasn't happened, won't happen. It's just a bedtime story Faith. GDR loves CS Lewis. He's as big a fraud as the rest of the apologists but he at least got this right.
quote: C.S. Lewis, "The World's Last Night" (1960) Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: I suppose you believe the lie that His body was stolen out of the tomb too? I don't believe a word of the entire story, it's just a story.
I suspect you left out the rest of C. S. Lewis' statement since you only quoted what he paraphrased of what the debunkers say. You can very easily find it if you want to. He goes on to say that Jesus - even though he said the second coming would be within the lifetimes of the people listening - was also unable to say exactly what particular day in their lifetime the big event would happen, and because he can't do this it's strong evidence that it's true! It's hilarious stuff.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: The idea that a crucified would be dreamed up by any Jew at the time, let alone Paul, is ridiculous. It was so shameful that Paul has to address the issue by starting off saying that he wasn't ashamed to preach a crucified messiah. If you take the view that someone called Jesus was indeed crucified it's not ridiculous at all to report it. He'd have to report it because those around at the time would know. But having reported that the messia was dead, he then had to make it all ok again by inventing the whole cock-and-bull story about a subsequent resurrection. THAT's the ridiculous part.
In addition to that we have people sacrificing their lives for this belief right from the beginning. Paul himself spent the bulk of the rest of his life suffering long stretches of imprisonment, numerous beatings and eventually death to support his beliefs. So what? He believed his own story. There are people blowing themselves for their mistaken beliefs every day. It's a common place.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: There were numerous messianic movements over roughly a 200 year period. In virtually all, if not all, cases the messianic leaders were put to death and that was the end of the movement. In many of the cases the messianic figures actually had varying degrees of success in that they actually held some degree of power. [] Here was a messianic figure who achieved nothing of what was expected of a messiah and was put to death in the most shameful way possible, with his followers all bailing out and yet they come back and dedicate their lives to following him. Something happened to cause this turn around and they have given an account of what that something was. You're making my point for me. If you can kill a messiah, he's not the messiah. It's the ressurection that 'proves' the messiah. Inventing a resurrection was absolutely necessary for the thing to work. The problem, of course, is that he was supposed to come back again quite quickly in all his glory but they couldn't pull that trick off could they? He disappeared forever. Almost as though he'd died just like every other failed messiah.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: Absolutely. The thing is though that the messiah was not expected to be in any way divine. A messiah was expected to be a human figure that would lead them against their enemies, defeat them and rebuild the temple. Right, and not perform strings of miracles then?
Also, if they were going to make up a resurrection story they wouldn't have had Him barbecuing fish or doing the other human like things that He did. Why on earth not? It's all part of the story.
They had already assumed He was a failed messaih after the crucifixion. So they created the ressurection myth to fix the problem.
Why would they want to start it up again? It put them at odds with most of their friends and family. Do you really think they would do this for a lie? It doesn't have to be a lie, it could be something they believed to be true. Or just something they wanted to believe was true. Or it could just be a lie that they used to carry on with their beliefs. There's any number of ways to spin it. The very least likely being that it actually happened.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: There is a problem with the word "generation" Only for you and your beliefs. Obviously it's necessary for you to change the meaning of a word that makes the entire Christian belief system a nonsense. Unfortunately for you it doesn't matter what liberties you take with the meaning of words, it's clear that everyone thought the second coming was soon - just like you. And just like you, they were wrong.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: If I were to pray to have water turned into wine and it happened, (hasn't worked so far), it wouldn't be me performing the niracle but God working through me. Now that is a truly crazy thing to say. Pretty obviously you performed the miracle. And did it several other times too - raising dead, feeding thousands without a supermarket erc. Sure you can claim it ain't me but it sure looks like it.
Firstly there is no reasonable motive for them to do that, You mean that these people didn't believe anymore? When the modern-day prophets predict the end times but they don't happen, they don't jusy give up, they carry on and make all sorts of excuses about why. They have every motive to continue, they're deluded, just like Faith. You think she's ever going to be persuaded by amything at all? Of course not.
It pretty much depends on our starting point. No it doesn't, it only depends on the evidence. You simply substitute an irrational belief for evidence.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: Even the charlatans that cook up fake healings say that it is God using them as a vessel or something similar. Charlatans tell lies. Who knew? In the stories when JC performed his miracles, they didn't happen randomly as he was passing alon minding his own business, he made the decisions to raise the dead, create the wine, feed the crowds etc. It wasn't something that just happened without his knowledge or desire to do it. And it wasn't something that anyone else could do. *He* did it. Or so the story goes.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: Is this supposed to be an answer to the idea that He did it through God's power? If so it's wildly wrong. JC did them. Whether he used the power given to him by god, the White Witch of Gondor or the power of a magic ring, the story is that he did them. ABE. Maybe an analogy that you're fond of will help. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: Nobody said Jesus didn't do them. Yes they did.
GDR writes: If I were to pray to have water turned into wine and it happened, (hasn't worked so far), it wouldn't be me performing the niracle but God working through me.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Faith writes: Even you must know he can't possibly have meant Jesus had no part in it or that he himself would have had no part in the miracle he postulated. Maybe he will come along and correct me but, although his wording is unfortunate, when we speak of God working through us we are doing the actions but God is supplying the power. These word acrobatics only occurs because you guys try to hold impossible contradictions together as though they were totally sensible. The 'logical’ position is that when JC performs a miracle - note that that is what we say - it's him that's doing it with his own powers.But the problem is, he's only a mortal man that will eventually die like everyone else, so there has to be another word game that can be played that allowshim to act like a god whilst not being one. I know, we'll say that another god is doing it through him. Pure Hollywood. But also,he's not a puppet, he's a man making his own choices...yeh, right. That all makes total sense.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: It would appear that way to any observer. Some scriptures state otherwise, however: And, as you say, I really don't care what's written in your book or what apologists or phd students say about what's written in it. Until and unless the book itself can be shown to be a verified factual account of real history, it's just another book of fiction, like all the rest.
What difference would it make if the vessel died or not? If he hadn't died and was still walking around, are you sure that wouldn't make a difference? I reckon it might. Just a bit.
Is it so hard to grasp that the human allowed God to work through him? It's not hard to grasp at all, I'm just pointing out that it's a necessary plot device - a McGuffin - because JC turned out to be mortal. If this wasn't fiction, JC would simply be the god and then everything would be straightforward and unambiguous. Why make it all so difficult, convoluted and unbelievable? The point of the whole thing was apparently to save the world; there are a thousand better ways to do it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: Perhaps we can begin to use some of your thousand better ways...where do we start? We're doing ok, there's nothing wrong with do as you would be done by and love your neighbour. That's all you need. But the point was that if your god really felt the need to intervene to help us, he chose a truly ridiculous way of doing it. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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