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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 91 of 1748 (835809)
07-01-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
07-01-2018 2:51 PM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
That’s just nuts. Islam is not at all Roman. Lumping things together for no sound reason is not sensible and shouldn’t be believed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-01-2018 2:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 07-01-2018 3:37 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 92 of 1748 (835811)
07-01-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by PaulK
07-01-2018 3:15 PM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
Something to do with the fact that the Middle East was part of the Roman Empire and mostly Christian too, before Islam took it over. I don't know all the reasoning, I just keep these things in mind to see what develops. I think a main way the future Roman Empire will be "different" as the prophecy says, is that it will be frankly religious, headed by a true Antichrist who puts himself in the place of God. Of course the Reformers identified the Pope as putting himself in the place of God and also pointed out that he sits in the "temple" as defined in the New Testament as the people of God. A revived Holy Roman Empire may be a good model for the continuation of the Roman Empire. It's too early to be sure of anything. Wait and see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2018 3:15 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2018 3:40 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2018 3:48 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 93 of 1748 (835812)
07-01-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
07-01-2018 3:37 PM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
It seems that absolutely anything at all will do.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 07-01-2018 3:37 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-01-2018 4:00 PM Tangle has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 94 of 1748 (835814)
07-01-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
07-01-2018 3:37 PM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
quote:
Something to do with the fact that the Middle East was part of the Roman Empire and mostly Christian too, before Islam took it over.
Which ought to make Islam a new empire on the list. Arguably at least two, for the Arabs and the later Turks.
quote:
A revived Holy Roman Empire may be a good model for the continuation of the Roman Empire.
It is ? The Holy Roman Empire is a lousy choice and there’s a pretty big discontinuity between the original and the revival, too. A straightforward Roman revival would be better but still not continuous (not least because the Western Empire fell long before the Eastern)
quote:
It's too early to be sure of anything.
Unless you are going to propose daft stuff like Roman settlers hiding out in the South American rain forests it is hard to see how you could claim continuity. The institutions of the Roman state are gone. We can be sure of that. There’s no Roman government-in-exile, hanging in from the fall of Constantinople. We can be sure of that. Where is the continuity ?
Seriously, for there to be real continuity the Roman Empire must somehow exist now. It doesn’t and we can be sure of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 07-01-2018 3:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 07-01-2018 10:42 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 1748 (835815)
07-01-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Tangle
07-01-2018 3:40 PM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
Tangle writes:
It seems that absolutely anything apologists can make up at all will do as long as it fits the desired dogma.
Fixed it for you.
Edited by jar, : fix quote box

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2018 3:40 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 07-04-2018 3:23 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 96 of 1748 (835824)
07-01-2018 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by PaulK
07-01-2018 3:48 PM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
There's continuity at least in the Roman trappings of the Roman Church, as the garb comes straight from the Romans, and the title "Pontifex Maximus." It obviously has nothing to do with Christianity. The robes, the weird headgear, the jewelry and so on, the enormous wealth. And the rosary comes from the pagan religions, and statues of "gods" which have been changed into "saints" and doing signs like the sign of the cross, nothing to do with Christianity. The title "vicar of Christ" could be directly translated "antichrist" since it means "substitute for" or "in the place of" Christ. I'm supposing it's the religious aspects of the Roman Empire that are likely to be the main identity of the prophesied end times Roman Empire, because its primary identity is enemy of God, and the prophecy describes it as different from other kingdoms. The pagan religious aspects would dminate, more than the institutions of government. though those may be part of it too when the whole thing comes together. Superficially anyway. The Popes tend to be too old for many of the characteristics of the Antiochus type of Antichrist who is a leader of armies, so there are things that don't quite fit as well as things that do. Wait and see. Islam could even be united in some way with the Roman Church. Wait and see.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 07-01-2018 3:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 12:25 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 97 of 1748 (835826)
07-02-2018 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
07-01-2018 10:42 PM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
quote:
There's continuity at least in the Roman trappings of the Roman Church, as the garb comes straight from the Romans, and the title "Pontifex Maximus." It obviously has nothing to do with Christianity.
That’s not really a continuation of the Empire, though. The Greek Orthodox Church is arguably closer, being the main religion of the longer-lasting Eastern Empire anyway.
quote:
The title "vicar of Christ" could be directly translated "antichrist" since it means "substitute for" or "in the place of" Christ.
That would be twisting it in a very nasty way. The secular use never meant enemy it meant a subordinate appointed to act in the place of their superior.
quote:
I'm supposing it's the religious aspects of the Roman Empire that are likely to be the main identity of the prophesied end times Roman Empire, because its primary identity is enemy of God, and the prophecy describes it as different from other kingdoms. The pagan religious aspects would dminate, more than the institutions of government
But that isn’t really continuity of the Empire. It would be a new Empire with the same religion (which really wouldn’t be the paganism of Jesus’ day - it takes a lot more than vestments and titles to preserve a religion)
quote:
The Popes tend to be too old for many of the characteristics of the Antiochus type of Antichrist who is a leader of armies, so there are things that don't quite fit as well as things that do. Wait and see
I’d look at Christians in America. It’s the best fit around today.
quote:
Wait and see. Islam could even be united in some way with the Roman Church. Wait and see.
Islam is incredibly disunited (the Sunni/Shi’a split is the big obvious one but there is more). The Roman Catholic Church hasn’t even managed to reunite with the Anglicans or the Orthodox churches. Then there are the basic theological disagreements between. Christianity and Islam. It’s not going to happen in the foreseeable future. You’d have to be insane to think otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 07-01-2018 10:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 4:18 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 5:09 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 10:10 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 1748 (835828)
07-02-2018 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by PaulK
07-02-2018 12:25 AM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
How about we go back to the main topic. I did ask you to spell out your timing to the Maccabean period because I missed it. Please do that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 12:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 11:12 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 1748 (835829)
07-02-2018 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by PaulK
07-02-2018 12:25 AM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
For that matter I'd like to see how you spell out the whole seventy weeks. You said something about the Messiah coming right after the initial 49 weeks, but what does the sixty-two weeks extend to, and the sixty-nine, and exactly where does the seventieth week fit in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 12:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 11:37 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 1748 (835833)
07-02-2018 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by PaulK
07-02-2018 12:25 AM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
And even your comment about the Messiah coming after the first 49 years needs support. Which of your two messiahs and when did he appear?
But since you haven't answered shall I suppose you can't relate your scenario to the seventy weeks prophecy at all?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 12:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 11:20 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 101 of 1748 (835834)
07-02-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
07-02-2018 4:18 AM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
The main topic includes cases where the standard Christian interpretation doesn’t work. So the fact that you haven’t got a viable list of four Empires is a part of that. More so than my attempt to figure out what the author of Daniel meant by the seventy weeks. We know the end point has to be at the time of the Maccabean revolt - that is solid. The rest is less important

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 4:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 12:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 102 of 1748 (835835)
07-02-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-02-2018 10:10 AM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
quote:
And even your comment about the Messiah coming after the first 49 years needs support. Which of your two messiahs and when did he appear?
If you weren’t too busy ignoring what I wrote - and repeating the same obvious error even after I explained it again shows that you were - then you’d already have seen the support and know.
You could even work it out yourself easily enough.
quote:
But since you haven't answered shall I suppose you can't relate your scenario to the seventy weeks prophecy at all?
Since you haven’t given any reason to think that Daniel 9 meant to use an uncorrected 360 day year, or any valid reason to suppose that there is a gap in the 490 years, or any valid reason to think that Daniel 11 suddenly changes subject or any reason to think that the actual Roman Empire could make a comeback - despite having far more time and continuing to post to this topic - may I assume that you have no answer ?
Sinking to this level is only proof of your desperation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 10:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 12:56 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 1748 (835836)
07-02-2018 11:35 AM


fact: all Christian End Times Prophesy is failed Prophesy.
The one fact that is incontrovertible is that all Christian End Times prophesy has been shown to be failed Prophesy!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 104 of 1748 (835837)
07-02-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
07-02-2018 5:09 AM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
Anyway the seventy weeks.
As I said the endpoint is the Maccabean revolt with the murder of Onaias marking the start of the last seven years. The case for this is very strong unlike the argument that there are an extra 280 sevens or more that just happened to get left out of the prophecy for no apparent reason.
The dates don’t really work out whether through error in the author’s part or a schematic system that doesn’t match actual history. Since the 70 likely comes from Jeremiah’s 70 years it may be schematic (the chapter opens with a reading from Jeremiah).
If the 49th year is intended to be Cyrus’ conquest of Babylon then the start date works out to be about right for a prophecy of Jeremiah (it is in the period he was active) as I have previously suggested.
The end date, on the other hand ought to be about 98BC. That is obviously wrong, but given that we know the intended end date,the only alternative to assuming that the dates are wrong or schematic is to find alternative interpretations which do fit and I am not aware of any plausible options.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 5:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 07-02-2018 1:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 1748 (835843)
07-02-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by PaulK
07-02-2018 11:12 AM


Re: None of your claims fits the prophecies
The main topic includes cases where the standard Christian interpretation doesn’t work.
It works beautifully.
So the fact that you haven’t got a viable list of four Empires is a part of that.
Oh but we do. The statue of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2 clearly shows the same list of four empires as all the other prophecies to come. They are not named in all the prophecies but they all have the same characteristics to identify them as the same four empires. Daniel 7 spells out the same ones as the statue, I thought it named them there but it doesn't but they are all the same. The statue's head of gold is Babylon, and so is the lion of Dsniel 7; the two arms of the statue are Medo-Persia as is the bear of Daniel 7 that is raised up on one side as is the ram with the lopsided horns in Daniel 8. they all symbolize a two-nation empire, and two of the images show the empire to be made up of one nation that is stronger than the other. The brass belly of the status, the leopard with four wings and heads of Daniel 7 and the goat with the notable horn that becomes four horns from one of which emerges the little horn are all Greece conquering by Alexander the Great and then breaking up into the four kingdoms out of which comes Antiochus Epiphanes the little horn. He is always depicted as coming from Greece. The legs of iron of the statue and the Great and Terrible Beast of Daniel 7 are interpreted to be the Roman Empire although it is never named in Daniel while all the other empires are named. It clearly follows Greece and can't be the four kingdoms that supplanted Alexander because 1), they are four in number, 2) they are not Great and Terrible by comparison with the three previous kingdoms. The little horn of Daniel 7 comes from the fourth kingdom/empire while the little horn of Daniel 8 comes from one of the kingdoms that succeed Alexander and we know him to be Antiochus Epiphanes.
All the prophecies relate to the same empires, but Daniel 8 and 10 to 12 focus in on the two in the middle and then exclusively on Greece in two of the successors to Alexander. This is all easily shown from the scripture alone.
More so than my attempt to figure out what the author of Daniel meant by the seventy weeks. We know the end point has to be at the time of the Maccabean revolt - that is solid. The rest is less important
You are right to focus on Antiochus Epiphanes' defeat by the Maccabees as a major part of the prophetic picture but you are wrong to ignore Daniel 9 which shows the bigger context of the coming of the Messiah and the fourth empire. Since you obviously can't show any timing from the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 to support your scenario you are missing the big picture by trying to squeeze it all into the prophecies concerning the Maccabean period. It doesn't fit. Because Daniel 7 and 9 contradict it.
The Maccabean period is spelled out in some detail but if you leave out the greater context of the fourth empire and the coming of the Messiah you miss that it's meant to be a foreshadowing of something far bigger, which we know by the description of the fourth empire as more terrible than all the others, and far off in the future, which we know because of that unfulfilled final week.
Antiochus and the Maccabean struggle are meant to be helps to us to understand this yet-future Antichrist and his times, which will bring an end not just to the struggles of Israel but the entire world.
And this bigger picture depends entirely on understanding the meaning of the seventy weeks. Since you slight that one major prophecy you are missing the big picture and reducing the prophetic meaning of Daniel to a small local event in which Israel prevails over its enemy, which is in reality intended to foreshadow the end of the world and the triumph of God in Jesus Christ which will bring ALL history to an end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 11:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 07-02-2018 2:09 PM Faith has replied

  
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