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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 166 of 1748 (835928)
07-05-2018 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
07-04-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
jar writes:
And every single End Times product has been recalled.
Note what scripture says, however: (and yes, you will likely criticize me for taking "pieces parts" out of context! Oh well...)
2 Peter 3:3-7 writes:
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
After all of these years, I am beginning to anticipate your counter-arguments rather well.
You are going to urge me to read all of 2nd Peter. So I will.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 07-04-2018 3:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 07-05-2018 10:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 1748 (835929)
07-05-2018 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
07-05-2018 9:37 AM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
Yup!
2 Peter is a very important example of how the marketing changed because the prophecies failed.
In 2 Peter we see the acknowledgement that what Jesus said failed to happen and a revision of the "sizzle" from "this generation" to sometime in the future.
And that ambiguity has worked well as a marketing tool ever since then.
2 Peter marks another major revision of the Mythos similar to the revisionism found in the Gospel of John.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 07-05-2018 9:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 07-06-2018 8:07 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 1748 (835930)
07-05-2018 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by jar
07-03-2018 7:45 PM


Re: reading scripture
jar writes:
One group decides what they want the conclusion to show.
One group simply looks at what the text says regardless of any desired outcome.
One group sells the sizzle rather than the steak.
One group simply says it is steak of a particular cut with marbling.
John 5:39-40 writes:
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
You and PaulK have no expectation of finding anything (or Anyone) in the scriptures...you simply read them critically and take them as fallible. No wonder you ask how do I know it is God? You admit that you have never found out how it is possible to know God (or Jesus). Why is it so hard for people to accept what Jesus says and come to Him?
Evidently, you believe that the expectation is not for you to get "saved" or "rescued" but to simply try and do your best on a daily basis... Which I respect. However, I agree with Faith and am in the first group.
I am reading 2nd Peter and see an entirely different interpretation than what you mentioned. I will continue this argument in a new post.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : argument continues in latest post

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 07-03-2018 7:45 PM jar has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 169 of 1748 (835931)
07-05-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
07-05-2018 8:17 AM


Symbolism isn’t that easy
I think it is entirely fair to deal with side issues, even if the main points should be left.
quote:
Image of winged lion on Babylon gate

quote:
If there is any question as to what this represents see the image I posted at the top: Babylon symbolized itself by the image of a winged lion.
It isn’t. That is a replica of decorations from the palace of Darius in Susa. It’s Persian.
Frieze of Griffins
May I suggest that jumping to wild conclusions from a label on a tourist photograph is a bit foolish. The more so when the label is wrong.
Edited by PaulK, : Fix tag

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 8:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:03 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:18 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 07-06-2018 12:04 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 1748 (835933)
07-05-2018 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by PaulK
07-05-2018 11:26 AM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
I got the image from a Google Image page for Lion Image of Babylon. Most of the images don't have wings but a few do and they all look like the other lions except with wings. This one was identified as drecorating the gate of Babylon.
Again, the lion is identical to the other Babylonian lions, unless you want to claim that all of them are really Persian.;
I don't need the image for my argument, I just tnought it made a nice illustration for the theme, as well as handy to refer to.
And your link doesn't go to a picture. I don't think you've proved me wrong about this.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 11:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-05-2018 1:23 PM Faith has replied
 Message 173 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 1:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 1748 (835934)
07-05-2018 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by PaulK
07-05-2018 11:26 AM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
A little more than halfway down on this page (which I haven't read but it sounds like it might be something you'd enjoy reading, for possible ammunition in this debate), A Skeptic's Guide to Bible Prophecy, you'll find two images of winged lions with human heads with this caption:
The Lamassu, a lion with wings and a human head is a recurring figure from the ruins of Ancient Babylon. It fits perfectly with the beast described in Daniel 7:4.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 11:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 1:30 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 172 of 1748 (835935)
07-05-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
07-05-2018 1:03 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
Faith writes:
I got the image from a Google Image page for Lion Image of Babylon.
Hmm.... When I Googled, "winged lion on Babylon gate," I got Barry Setterfield's page on prophecy.
Anyway, if the Jews had seen that image in Babylon, it's no surprise that it would end up in their consciousness. That tends to diminish the likelihood that the "vision" was real.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:42 PM ringo has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 173 of 1748 (835936)
07-05-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
07-05-2018 1:03 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
quote:
I got the image from a Google Image page for Lion Image of Babylon. Most of the images don't have wings but a few do and they all look like the other lions except with wings. This one was identified as drecorating the gate of Babylon.
This one also has horns and the back legs aren’t from a lion either. Unlike the ordinary lions you’d find on the Ishtar Gate which really is a gate from Babylon.
So all you have is an image which someone said was from Babylon Gate in the Louvre. The Louvre says it’s from the Griffin Frieze.
Here’s a link with a better image. You can see it’s exactly the same.
wikimedia
quote:
I don't need the image for my argument, I just tnought it made a nice illustration for the theme, as well as handy to refer to.
I hope you have some other support for your assertion that the winged lion is a special symbol of Babylon then. (It is a symbol of Venice but I wouldn’t try to prove it by showing an image said to be from Venice.)
quote:
And your link doesn't go to a picture. I don't think you've proved me wrong about this
You forget who you are talking to. The Louvre page is set up to display a Flash animation. For those without Flash - most of us now - they have links to images right there on the page. So yes, I have proven you wrong.

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 Message 170 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 174 of 1748 (835937)
07-05-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
07-05-2018 1:18 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
In fact the Lamassu is much older than Babylon, and even the Persians adopted it. It’s a symbol found in Babylon (the version with a bull’s body, too). But a special symbol of Babylon? That’s a different question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:44 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 1748 (835938)
07-05-2018 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
07-05-2018 1:23 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
Hmm.... When I Googled, "winged lion on Babylon gate," I got Barry Setterfield's page on prophecy.
Go to Google Image and look for Lion Image of Babylon.
Anyway, if the Jews had seen that image in Babylon, it's no surprise that it would end up in their consciousness. That tends to diminish the likelihood that the "vision" was real.
I suspect that's what the writer of that page I just posted about also argues. But no, the first visions in Daniel came while Daniel was IN Babylon, first serving under Nebuchadnezzar and then under Belshazzar, so the images of Babylon would have been quite familiar to him and to all the Jews in the Babylonian Captivity.
The winged lion in his own vision did, however, come AS a vision. He would have recognized it, but the point of having a recognizable image would be to serve as an anchor for the whole prophecy, to give a model for how to identify the other beasts in terms of kingdoms or empires. Of course we get lots of other help too as angels keep showing up to explain them to Daniel.
Daniel lived through both the Babylonian and the Medo-Persian empires. I need to check but I don't think he lived to see Alexander's conquest, although Greece is identified by the angel as the kingdom that defeats Medo-Persia in Daniel 8. That makes it also the empire symbolized by the brass part of the status in Daniel 2 and the leopard with four wings and four heads in Daniel 7, that is, the third of the four empires in the first two visions. The fourth empire of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, which evangelicals interpret as the Roman Empire, isn't even named by the angels as I recall, wo that one is left entirely for us to interpret.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-05-2018 1:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 176 of 1748 (835939)
07-05-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by PaulK
07-05-2018 1:30 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
I accept the biblical prophecy as authoritative. If it identifies it as specifically Babylonian then it is specifically Babylonian. And I feel no obligation to prove that to you. If you prefer your extrabiblical references, enjoy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 1:30 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 2:02 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 177 of 1748 (835940)
07-05-2018 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
07-05-2018 1:44 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
quote:
I accept the biblical prophecy as authoritative. If it identifies it as specifically Babylonian then it is specifically Babylonian.
The problem is that the Bible doesn’t. If Daniel did or any OT Boom did I would definitely accept that as evidence. But an image that isn’t even Babylonian or intended to represent Babylon ? No.
quote:
And I feel no obligation to prove that to you. If you prefer your extrabiblical references, enjoy.
By which you seem to mean that you consider some guy on the internet more authoritative then the museum which hosts the work.
How silly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 2:11 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 178 of 1748 (835941)
07-05-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
07-05-2018 2:02 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
We know the first empire is Babylon. If the visions aren't enough there is the fact that Daniel identifies the time of each of his reports with the ruler he was serving under and tht includes Babylonian and Median and Persian rules, in that order.
And clearly the lion image is associated with Babylon enough to have a whole Google Image page on it.
That's enough.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 2:02 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2018 2:19 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 1748 (835942)
07-05-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
07-05-2018 1:42 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
Faith writes:
But no, the first visions in Daniel came while Daniel was IN Babylon, first serving under Nebuchadnezzar and then under Belshazzar, so the images of Babylon would have been quite familiar to him and to all the Jews in the Babylonian Captivity.
That's what I said.
Faith writes:
He would have recognized it, but the point of having a recognizable image would be to serve as an anchor for the whole prophecy, to give a model for how to identify the other beasts in terms of kingdoms or empires.
Sure, and basing the prophecy on easily understood symbolism eliminates the need for an actual "source" for the prophecy.
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 1:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 3:51 PM ringo has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 180 of 1748 (835943)
07-05-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
07-05-2018 2:11 PM


Re: Symbolism isn’t that easy
quote:
We know the first empire is Babylon. If the visions aren't enough there is the fact that Daniel identifies the time of each of his reports with the ruler he was serving under and tht includes Babylonian and Median and Persian rules, in that order.
We don’t know it from the symbolism of Daniel 7. Anyway this is a side point - the real issues are about Daniel 8 and the fourth empires of Daniel 2 and 7, not the first of either. I’m saving those issues for the full reply, despite your attempt to drag out this tangent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 2:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 07-05-2018 3:43 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 07-06-2018 12:33 AM PaulK has replied

  
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