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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 1748 (836072)
07-09-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by PaulK
07-08-2018 11:58 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
I wasn't being nasty, I was just saying if I can't make sense of what you are saying I often don't address it. and if you bring it up again I just don't recognize it because it never made any sense to me anyway. Which is the case with this idea that the Bible should have mentioned other empires. Right, God will appreciate your advice I'm sure.
Historically there is no other empire that fits the prophecies but the Roman Empire that followed Greece.
And I'm not looking to a revival of the Roman Empire myself, I think it never came to an end, that the Roman Church that became head over the Holy Roman Empire continued it. It's apparently not in operation now but it's only been a couple hundred years and it's merely underground as a political force. The Vatican is a political entity. It's never died. It's just waiting for the opportunity. Whether a Pope will be THE end times Antichrist or not I'm not sure, it's certainly clear that the papacy itself fits all the requirements for the job, but we need a military leader in that role. In any case it has to be someone from "the people who are to come" that Titus represented.
No. Four empires, Roman the last. Wait and see.
ABE: This certainly would explain how the fourth empire is radically different from all the others, and if it's a religious leader, say a Pope, in the role of Antichrist, it explains why that character is also different from all other kings. In other words it fits the prophecies.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by PaulK, posted 07-08-2018 11:58 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 12:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 1748 (836074)
07-09-2018 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by PaulK
07-09-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
I wasn't attacking you, I was exp0laining why I didn't know what you awere talking anout. Introducing other empires makes no sense. We have the four in szctipture and that's what the prophecies are abnout, not any other empires.
I know all that about the Holy Romaqn Empire. I'm sure the final versiojn will be everything the prophecies ask for. However, I haven't run across this interpretation anywhere either, it's really my own thoughts, so you can ignore it if you like.
The Bible is a supernatural work. God is interested in the entire world, not just whatever you think is the "region of interest to the author of Daniel." You'll never get any of this if you stick to the antisupernaturalist "scholars." But you are operating under the handicap of not being saved so I really can't expect more.
Your remark about Titus is a case in point. He became a ruler. He's a model for an end times leader that includes the little horn of Daniel 7 for which the little horn of Daniel 8 is another model and not the fulfillment.
Wait and see. It's all coming together.
Wait and see.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 12:17 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 1:15 PM Faith has replied
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 1748 (836077)
07-09-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
07-09-2018 1:15 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
We have the four in szctipture and that's what the prophecies are abnout, not any other empires.
That would be true if the prophecies were meant for the relatively short term. If they were meant for our time, we'd expect new empires to emerge.
Why?
Scripture says four, period. You don't think God can see into the furture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 1748 (836078)
07-09-2018 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by PaulK
07-09-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
All my hate. Sigh. And here I love you all enough to give you a heads up for what is coming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:59 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 1748 (836079)
07-09-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by PaulK
07-09-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Scripture is concerned with a certain sequence of empires that are revealed to be of the same mind and spirit, from Babylon to Rome. Other empires may have a similar mindset but they are not part of the prophecy which does point to an end times Roman Empire. No it is not over. Wait and see
Of course I do think it is right on the horizon, or waiting in the wings, perhaps to emerge on stage rather suddenly. That's why I keep saying Wait and see. Of course I could be wrong.
Nevertheless Wait and see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 2:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 1748 (836081)
07-09-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by PaulK
07-09-2018 1:59 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
This Pope has been blatantly ignoring Christian doctrine since he took office, so doctrine is not a problem for the RC Church, and recent Popes have been going out of their way to be accepting toward all kinds of nonChristian religions, this Pope more than them all; he's even put his arms around atheism. Wait and see.
Oh and none of my assessments are "unthinking," I've been learning about all this stuff for many years now. You really should take advantage of my knowledge.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:59 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 1748 (836084)
07-09-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by ringo
07-09-2018 2:11 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Wait and see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:46 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 271 of 1748 (836088)
07-09-2018 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
07-09-2018 2:46 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
In the case of prophecy that is not yet fulfilled, there is not yet the reality needed to check the facts. Fear not, it will appear at the right time.
I really haven't mangled any facts, but PaulK has mangled a mess of them, from tne seventy weeks prophecy to the meaning of "Messiah the Prince" to the obvious identify of the fourth empire in two separate prophecies, to the confusing of two separate "little horns" that arise out of different empires. That's the mangling, I've done no mangling.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 3:17 PM Faith has replied
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 3:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 273 of 1748 (836091)
07-09-2018 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by PaulK
07-09-2018 3:17 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Facts, not interpretations. Your manglings are interpretations that mess up the facts or ignore them.
FACTS
FOUR DIFFERNET EMPIRES, not three and another that is an offshoot of the third.
TWO DIFFERENT LITTLE HORNS. One comes out of the third kingdom and the other out of the fourth which is a separate kingdom/empire, not an offshoot of the third,
ONE MESSIAH THE PRINCE, no hint of two
Seventy weeks that go nowhere near the Maccabean period no matter how you fiddle with them
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 3:17 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 3:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 275 of 1748 (836093)
07-09-2018 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
07-09-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
that is correct. There is absolutely no room in my thinking for the prophecy to fail. Absolutely none. I assume it is yet to be fulfilled because that is how God's word works. And my interpretations preserve the facts intact.
Wait and see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:41 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 288 of 1748 (836106)
07-09-2018 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
07-09-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
You believe the Bible because of fulfilled prophecy and you believe the prophecy will be fulfilled because the Bible is always right. Your reasoning is circular - which is why it doesn' t produce results that fit reality.
As a matter of fact it wasn't fulfilled prophecy that made me a believe in the Bible as God's word, although that is a good reason to believe. We already have fulfilled prophecies in the Daniel passages we are discussing:
Medo Persia did follow Babylon though nbody knew it in the time of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue;
Greece under Alexander the Great did defeat Medo Persia and conquer all the area over which his four generals did in fact in reality govern after his death, and they were also prophesied in the four horns of the goat in Daniel 8 as well as the four heads of the leopard of Daniel 7. Two empires prophesied that became reality.
And the wars between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, two of those generals under Anexander, are described so well in Daniel 11, and historians who don't believe in prophecy try to pretend it had occurred before the prophecy because it is so exact. But if it was prophecy, which it was, all that is fulfilled prophecy too.
And of coruse the seventy weeks prophecy that counts to Messiah the Prince was also fulfilled,
as well as the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the prince of the people who were to come, the Romans.
A lot of fulfillfed prophecy there to give us reason to expect unfulfilled prophecy will be fulfilled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 4:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 292 of 1748 (836110)
07-09-2018 10:10 PM


Where is the Roman Empire?
Of course it's meaningless, just a taste for classical architecture by somebody or other --one might ask who had that much power -- or just an accident of history or something like that, but isn't it a bit weird that our government buildings have so much of ROME in them?
Here's St. Peter's basilica in Rome with its obelisk:
And here's the US Capitol building with the Washington Monument:
And a little touch of Greece in the Supreme Court building, imitating the Parthenon which was dedicated to the goddess Athena
And that's just a tiny bit of the Roman and Greco-Roman influences that somehow got so strongly represented in our government. Oh and then there is the painting in the dome of the Capitol Building called the Apotheosis (it means deification) of Washington which has some gods and goddesses in it and a distinct Roman flavor. Maybe I'll go find a picture of that too.
Found it:
Wikipedia, The Apotheosis of Washington writes:
he Apotheosis of Washington is the fresco painted by Greek-Italian artist Constantino Brumidi in 1865 and visible through the oculus of the dome in the rotunda of the United States Capitol Building.... Brumidi had worked for three years in the Vatican under Pope Gregory XVI, and served several aristocrats as an artist for palaces and villas.
.
Symbolism
The Apotheosis of Washington depicts George Washington sitting amongst the heavens in an exalted manner, or in literal terms, ascending and becoming a god (apotheosis). Washington, the first U.S. president and commander-in-chief of the Continental Army during the American Revolutionary War, is allegorically represented, surrounded by figures from classical mythology. Washington is draped in purple, a royal color, with a rainbow arch at his feet, flanked by the goddess Victoria (draped in green, using a horn) to his left and the Goddess of Liberty to his right. Liberty wears a red Phrygian cap, symbolizing emancipation, from a Roman tradition where sons leaving the home and/or slaves being emancipated would be given a red cap. She holds a fasces in her right hand and an open book in the other.
And by the way, the Statue of Liberty also represents a goddess.
What does any of this have to do with what we always thought was the philosophical political framework of the United States? Weren't we kind of sort of founded in opposition to what all this stuff represents? Kinda sorta maybe huh? Our first President made into a god when he didn't even want to be a king?
Certainly it's at odds with the Protestant foundings of the first settlers, but it's also at odds with the supposed Enlightenment inspiration of the Constitutional period. The gods and goddesses of Rome? Or Greece either?
I don't know about you but when I first grasped all this it really gave me the creeps. Wolf in the hen house when nobody was looking, took up residence long time since already with nobody that I know of objecting, or even noticing for that matter. To me it's rather akin to The Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place. But then I have the comfort of knowing that my citizenship isn't on this planet anyway, according to Paul the Apostle.
Anyway I think the Roman Empire doesn't need a lot of reviving, we've got lots of it on hand already.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 07-10-2018 7:09 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 294 of 1748 (836113)
07-10-2018 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by jar
07-10-2018 7:09 AM


Re: Where is the Roman Empire?
Gosh, those Pilgrims sure came to the wrong place seeking freedom from European religious tyranny then, didn't they? What an odd miscalculation.
Oh and I should comment on your delightfully civilized style and your conscientious adherence to the rules of the forum. You are certainly a stellar example to us all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 07-10-2018 7:09 AM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 300 of 1748 (836129)
07-10-2018 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by PaulK
07-10-2018 2:45 PM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
Since the New Testament was written in Greek by Jesus' disciples it wouldn't make sense that He didn't also speak Greek. It was the common language of the day even if local areas had their own languages as well. And the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, was in common use throughout the Greek lands where the Jews were scattered. We know they also had their own languages because at Pentecost the disciples who spoke in "tongues" were understood as speaking those many languages by all the Jews who had come to Jerusalem for the feast. But surely they also spoke Koine Greek. Again, since the New Testament was written in Greek by Jewish fishermen and tax collectors it had to be the common language and Jesus must have spoken it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by PaulK, posted 07-10-2018 2:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2018 12:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 302 of 1748 (836131)
07-11-2018 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by PaulK
07-11-2018 12:15 AM


Re: The Olivet Discourse
OK, you are of course following the revisuionist modern "scholars" who deny everything traditionalists believe, of course, of course, just as you did with Deniel, which makes discussion with you, well, let's just say "difficult." All the writers of the New Testament were disciples of Christ, even the couple who weren't actually with him in His lifetime, meaning Luke and Paul. The rest all knew Him personally. And the New Testament was written within the first century. But go ahead, you like the revisionists and I'm not up to arguing with you about all that twisted nonsense, so I hope I can resist the temptation to get into another futile discussion with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2018 12:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2018 12:36 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 305 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2018 2:31 PM Faith has replied

  
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