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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Good point, though lets look at that in a broader context:
Jeremiah 18:5-11 writes: But even if God told the author directly to say that and even if the prophet said it, how would we know if God changed His mind, was simply wrong, or the prophecy was the vain imagination of the author? Then the Lord told me to say: 6 People of Israel, I, the Lord, have power over you, just as a potter has power over clay. 7 If I threaten to uproot and shatter an evil nation 8 and that nation turns from its evil, I will change my mind. 9 If I promise to make a nation strong, 10 but its people start disobeying me and doing evil, then I will change my mind and not help them at all. 11 So listen to me, people of Judah and Jerusalem! I have decided to strike you with disaster, and I won’t change my mind unless you stop sinning and start living right. Food for thought. Thanks, Paul.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So whenever I make a case for my interpretation I am misdirecting the audiences attention, as if their attention needs to be on what you market? Come on! You have been preaching the same song and dance here for ten years and always whine about being misrepresented. Yet you have the gall to call your opponents a culture of ignorance. Nevermind the personal attacks...lets get back to 2nd Peter.
jar writes: Some commentators argue that Jesus was talking about the end of Jerusalem, Matthew 24:34 Commentaries.
The author says that it is written to explain why the fact that the end did not come during that generation as Jesus said would happen should not be called the failed prophecy that it was.Jesus said that the end would come during that generation. The author of 2 Peter had to make up an explanation of why that is not a failure. Who do you suppose is the author? What motives can we suggest (and support) this authors intentions to be? You seem to already have your mind made up as to the motive. Apparently, it is not enough for me to go directly to 2nd Peter. Any commentary that I make is misdirecting the audience...to "palm a pea" while any commentary that you make is spared such accusation. Now where were we in 2nd Peter?
2 Peter 2:1-2 writes: You claim that I lie about you. If so, I am sorry, but all I am doing is reading scripture and quoting what you have said in other posts. You said that "Jesus said that the end times would happen before THIS generation died...By the time of 2 Peter it was obvious that jess ain't gonna happen." Are you thus teaching us that Jesus was WRONG? The commentators in my link explain differing arguments as to what the text meant. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves. jar writes: So let me get this straight. Most prophecy failed. Is that what you mean to teach?
And the Apologists have continued to revise the story because and only because they NEED to support and excuse the fact that most prophecy in the Bible stories simply failed or were forced and faked fulfillment. Faith writes: I agree with faith, though I will admit that the counter-arguments are challenging.
Three things for now:First, it is objective fact that the word "generation" had different meanings, I didn't invent that. The question is which applied. Second, Jesus' prophecy points in part to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70, for instance, that no stone would be left standing upon another, and the warning to those in Judea to flee to the mountains, anticipating the armies of Rome under Titus. And that specific generation did indeed witness all that. The problem is that the passage also refers to the second coming as well, and that's what needs sorting out. Third, we know He is coming again no matter what timing is implied in that particular discourse, which means His coming is yet future. There are too many other passages that make that clear. jar writes: The question is what do you teach that He is now? Yet until the return AND establishment of a new Kingdom Jesus is still just a failed Messiah.Remember, Jesus was never a Christian but rather a Jew. One thing that I always seek to discern in these discussions is the motives of the teachers. The authors. As well as our motives now as we debate openly in front of others. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: I've found sources that support your assertion. Lets look at one of them and follow their footnotes.
The fact is that the Jews of Judaea - and Galilee predominantly spoke Aramaic, not Greek.Zondervan Academic This article appears well written, quoting from various sources and making a strong case that supports Greek being spoken in certain settings and contexts. Aramaic was, of course, the native language, and this article suggests that Aramaic was likely the common language of the people We can conclude that Jesus likely spoke Aramaic more than Greek if He knew Greek at all.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
There is a controversy for sure, and in this link, the second commentator, John Allister, BA Theology, University of Oxford (2008), seems to argue for the likelihood, whereas the first commentator dismisses it. All of us have to rely on outside sources to bolster our arguments...the only question being whether we can likely trust the academic discipline and lack of ulterior motive from these sources. In my source, I would argue that the first commentator had a bias similar to the critical thinkers here at EvC, whereas the second commentator had no motive other than to argue common sense.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I would argue that you tend to be biased, much as I am the other way. Read my link above and compare the first comment from the second. The first sounds similar to your arguments, the second is the one I of course embrace.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You cant read it???? Odd...I never signed up...anyway this exchange encapsulates the debate so I will reprint it here:
quote: We most definitely have strong arguments from both sides...one side being believers and the other side critical thinking skeptics. I do not believe that either side has a monopoly on any truth, though the point can be made that each critic is on that side for a reason. Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockyChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Faith,commenting on my link from Quora writes: That's a bunch of revisionist BS. The Zondervan source is not known for revisionist thinking, though I included the Quora quotes to demonstrate that the argument is split down the middle between believers (mostly) and unbelievers. That being said, I don't agree with jars argument that most apologists have any sort of agenda---apart from trusting the Source as the originator of the truths and wisdom. Many well-known scholars were Biblical Apologists, one notable name being Henrietta Mears who had an undeniable influence in Bible study. Biblical Revisionism is hardly a fact-based conclusion. There are many assertions and an equal number of rebuttals and challenges to these assertions. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Paul K writes: The primary goal of Bible scholars is to understand the Bible in context. Most of them are Christian of some flavour. They just don’t unthinkingly accept fundamentalist views of the Bible (at least not completely - even those that are evangelicals often disagree with common beliefs)There are others who treat the Bible as a collection of historical documents rather than scripture, which is the line I try to follow. The problem in my mind with your approach is that for a believer, it eliminates any conclusion that God speaks to humanity through scripture. If I cannot find God through Jesus and through scripture, I am left either believing that He speaks to me through my intuition or faced with the cognitive dissonance that He is simply unknowable and likely a product of my imagination. Granted, this is no problem for you, Paul as you are an atheist.
Opposing fundamentalism for its own sake is not and cannot be the primary agenda of anyone worth listening to. It’s not even my agenda, appalled as I am by their behaviour. And yet we perhaps feel as if though anyone not promoting a living Christ is opposing Him by default.
jar writes: In my mind, this means that one group wants the conclusion to be that God speaks to us through scripture, while the other group sees no way to test or prove this and thus uses their own (and consensual proof through other critics) proof as to what it means. One group decides what they want the conclusion to show.One group simply looks at what the text says regardless of any desired outcome. Faith and I dont even agree on what scripture says nor means, but we hopefully do agree that God speaks to those who have an ear to listen. The critics, in general, have no belief in God,(or if they do they see God as much bigger than mere time for interaction with we humans)and thus we chaff at your interpretive style. Nothing personal, Paul....but we need to have God speak to us...not some bunch of human critics who believe only in human wisdom as the solution for life.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
when I say *we* I mean jars first group, of which Faith and I belong....not everyone.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: Or to put it another way you use your belief as an excuse to justify twisting the Bible. That may sound harsh but this is not about a solution to life it is about understanding what the Bible really says.For example Faith - and others - refuse to accept that prophecies fail so out comes all the creative interpretation to cover up the failure. That’s not being true to the Bible, that is putting your beliefs ahead of the Bible. it is about understanding what the Bible really says. More to the point, this debate in my mind is about understanding what God actually says---whether He does it through human authors of a book, voices in our head, or even through each other to each other...in some way, shape or form. You being an atheist may not see the issue framed this way, so that's our first hurdle...to have a consensus on what we are actually talking about. Let's say we "threw the Bible away" and attempted to understand God, His message for humanity and for us individually, and His teaching and edification. Without using the Bible verses as one reference, neither side could or would have an easy time with that concept. It would be highly subjective, inconclusive, and liable to take any number of rabbit trails off course. That's one reason why my side at least starts with the Bible. It is one method used to attempt to explain what God actually means. AbE: Oh and I don't agree with jars "God" as the creation of human authors. One point for consensus that I would insist on is that God is not a product of the human imagination. Granted it would be impossible for me to defend my premise. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Quite honestly, I believe that my side at least believes that we know God.
Your accusation is that we create the God that we want, supported by our "cult". I believe that you and some others never experienced the internal confirmation that I believe that I have. Granted i cant explain how knowing God is possible. I can't defend what I believe nor can Faith, though she tries mightily. You gotta give her credit for chutzpah. IIRC, I never started with the Bible...apart from what I was taught by my parents and culture. I had my "getting saved" moment and felt a major change. I never questioned it or doubted it for many years. To this day I am afraid to throw all of that away and examine religion critically from a human perspective. Faith is even more dogmatic than I am on this point.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
phat writes: IIRC, I never started with the Bible...apart from what I was taught by my parents and culture. I had my "getting saved" moment and felt a major change. I never questioned it or doubted it for many years. jar writes: What I mean is that now...after I changed...I use the Bible to support my beliefs. It's nearly worthless to use it with you because you take it where it leads and finds value in other religious texts as well as Mark Twain...so my argument supporting the God Whom I believe in falls flat with you. You always frame the issue that says that humans basically created God and god, and that GOD is beyond all of this. My dogma asserts that GOD is knowable and is not beyond all of this, yet I cant demonstrate how this is possible. Using the Bible to support my argument never works with you for you throw counterexamples right back at me.
just a few posts ago you claimed that you, Faith and others start with the Bible. jar writes: Yet if I "threw Him away" what would we even talk about except your infamous charge to go feed the hungry and not worry about a correct religion You maintain the God that you desire, need and create.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I value the Bible because I value God. I honestly believe that I have met God and that He accepted me, though I'm not going to simply use the Bible to find out about Him. On the other hand, what type of maze would I find myself in if I had no point of reference apart from an inner unction? And you must have gone even farther---you initially questioned your inner unction before you let your Faith blossom it into an idea and then a belief. You went with evidence and science instead...and thus remain an atheist. (or am I wrong in my assessment?)
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Faith writes: I listened to it. Granted Dr.Moody is on our side in this ongoing debate, but he is no slouch nor carny conman. His rationality (for a believer) is sound. Unbelievers would of course attack any presuppositions as to reasonable belief in general...
I've been trying to find a sermon I just heard this morning by a Josh Moody on "The reliability of the Bible" which he ends with a wonderful statement about how the Bible speaks to us as believers. If I find it I'll reference it although it's an audio sermon so probably nobody will listen to it anyway. jar writes: One group accepts a set of dogma endorsed by their chapter of Club Christian as authoritative while the other group accepts that what is written in the Bible stories is what is actually written in the Bible stories EVEN when it refutes the dogma of a given Chapter of Club Christian. One group believes that a communion and inner understanding of Gods guidance is possible and that one who seeks it finds it. The other group logically asks how this is even possible and continually pushes such an idea out of their head. One group seeks confirmation while the other group vigilantly rejects it. Granted I am being overly simplistic, but if we had to place given people into one group or the other, which group would the early church fathers be placed in and why? Add by Edit: Dr.Moody even quotes Mark Twain in his sermon.. quote: Edited by Phat, : added quoteChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: This is a perfect example of how your group believes. If your statement were presented to my group for criticism, they would run to the Bible...our source of evidence. (Granted I'm no longer trying to convert you...nor should you try and deconvert us. It is enough for now to compile a valid argument. )
Everybody should go with evidence and science first. Then, if there's no evidence, you can fall back on faith. Faith should never, ever, ever be the starting point for anything. ringo writes: ...Faith should never, ever, ever be the starting point for anything. I consulted my concordance and found 268 matches in the NIV mentioning "faith" and began to read them in context. Granted I would rather trust the Bible than I do you, but allow me to give you a shot in this discussion. Can you find anything in the Bible that supports your philosophy? If not, is it because modern humanity has gotten smarter than ancient writings? OK...lets expand further: Show me two articles by any modern psychologist or teacher that confirms your philosophy regarding evidence and science opposing faith and being superior to faith. Once we have quotes, we can discuss this further. (I certainly have the biblical quotes and we can discuss them in context)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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