Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 331 (830735)
04-05-2018 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Phat
04-03-2018 10:22 AM


Carbohydrate Addiction
Can You Be Addicted To Carbs? Scientists Are Checking That Out
Some research:
Fast-digesting carbohydrates can stimulate regions of the brain involved in cravings and addiction, according to a study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Phat, posted 04-03-2018 10:22 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 226 of 331 (836294)
07-14-2018 5:28 AM


Phats Addictions Update
I stopped counting my days of sobriety and focused instead on the ability to get right back on the "horse" after being bucked off.(relapse)
To refresh everyone's memory, I have named three primary areas of possible addictive habits in my life. By definition, the brain has molded itself around these habits and mindful daily vigilance and awareness is necessary to achieve sobriety (or changing behavior) which will occur in time.
Here is my report card:
1) Compulsive Gambling--This was my most out of control addiction and after achieving one year of sobriety I had a major relapse in late 2017 which erased my gains. Recovering from that, I have become more mindful of my patterns, triggers, and brain-related disorders that contribute to the addiction. I no longer chart my days of sobriety except to say that I am usually sober 30-45 days before occasionally lapsing for usually no longer than a day. Thus, instead of one year sober and 6 months relapse, I now get 40 days sober and 1-day lapse...followed by 30-45 more sober days. The pattern is under better control.
Mindful and healthy eating This one is subtle and is not so much an addiction as it is a lazy and bad habit. I'm working on eating healthier 80% of the time and messing up 20% of the time as a goal....and I hope to achieve a permanent healthy lifelong diet discipline that I can live with.
Emotional Addiction This one is now the primary addiction that I am working on. It goes back even farther in my life than did the problem gambling. Much of it is of a personal and sensitive nature so I won't elaborate on it here except to say that I am gaining mindfulness on what once were unconscious and harmful emotional behaviors.
In summation, I am learning more about myself and am being mindful and consciously aware of my behaviors. The summer is turning out to be productive. I am working and going to the health club at least 3 days a week. I am drinking more water as well.
Thats my report.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 227 of 331 (839769)
09-15-2018 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Tangle
03-19-2018 5:12 PM


Back On The Horse: Day 15
I am happy to report that I am firmly back under control of my addictions, and I am thankful to again be mindful and aware of my successes as well as my failures. (We learn a lot from failure)
RAZD writes:
You can do it, you have done it before, and doing it again is easier -- your brain will easily resume that learned pattern as well, but you are fighting one you've been trapped in for a long time. It takes dedication and commitment.
Every time that I cycle into this stable pattern, I bring a bit more knowledge with me into the fight.
Tangle writes:
It seems to me that you're making eating just another one of your obsessions. If you want to be 'normal' why not behave like a normal? Eating is not something you need to make into a big thing. Normal isn't researching, calibrating and chronicling everything you cook and ingest and looking for admiration; normal is just eating what you like and being sensible about it.
My Doctor agrees with you. He claims that there are many people now obsessed with ketogenic diets and extreme intermittent fasting...which I will admit that I looked into a few months ago. (He calls those people Ketards! )
As far as my basic diet goes, it is low carb all the way...but once stability has been achieved and blood sugars brought back under control, restrictions on carb intake can be relaxed. As a diabetic, I can't let carbohydrate addiction bring me down.
Today is Day 15,(started my program on September 1st) and I weigh 230. My overall goal is mental...Psychiatrists tell me that I need to move from anxiety into awareness and from addictive behavior(self-medicating the anxiety) into positive action. Again, the key word is balance and mindfulness. My overall goals are to simply become more aware of my responsibilities for my own personal health and the best methods for avoiding addictive behaviors in general. I am optimistic once again!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2018 5:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 331 (849675)
03-17-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
12-13-2014 10:41 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
ringo writes:
I'd divide Rational into Good Rational and Bad Rational. Bad Rational says there "must" be something beyond the natural and it stretches the rational beyond its limits to try to prove it. Good Rational is skeptical of Bad Rational.
Nonsense. Read
this and tell me what you think.
By the way for those so interested, I had a few relapses and mental struggles since September 2018, but overall im getting stronger mentally. I now weigh 220.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 12-13-2014 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by ringo, posted 03-17-2019 3:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 331 (849690)
03-18-2019 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by ringo
03-17-2019 3:16 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
If you bothered to read my link, you would have found that it is only rational and animal. You prefer to call it good rational and bad rational, but there is nothing rational about being driven by emotions and hunger if they, in fact, are bad for you.
You say that you (or some in the future) will likely always smoke cigarettes. That behavior is never a part of the rational brain. It is an animal brain that likes it. Same with my gambling and all of the other addictions that people face.
Two Wolves Parable
The rational brain is a good wolf. The animal brain is the bad wolf. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by ringo, posted 03-17-2019 3:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2019 9:29 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 232 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 233 of 331 (849796)
03-21-2019 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
12-12-2014 11:26 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:
If you bothered to read my link, you would have found that it is only rational and animal.
ringo writes:
I know your link says that. I'm asking why you swallow it hook, line and sinker and consider everything else "nonsense".
The science makes sense. My rational mind knows what rational things I should do. Cigarette smoking is not rational. Nor is excessive drinking. My rational mind knows these things. Even drinkers who have no problem know their limits and the rationally minded ones never get too drunk.
ringo writes:
Are you under the impression that rationality is 100% reliable and can never be misused?
Not quite. I believe that rationality is a learning process. Again, there is nothing rational about being driven by emotions and hunger if they, in fact, are bad for you.
ringo writes:
I'm talking about how we use rationality to respond to those situations.
I am as well. Remember a couple of years ago when you said this:
ringo writes:
Q Do you suffer from addiction?
A: No. I enjoy it.
I've heard addiction defined as a behavior that affects every area of your life - work, home, etc. If you can hold a job and maintain reasonably peaceful interpersonal relationships, I don't much care what bad habits you have.
The issue is not that you care what bad habits I have. The issue is whether your rational mind recognizes your own bad habits and informs you when you've gone too far. The RR people would argue that we talk ourselves out of rationality at times.
ringo writes:
Good and bad are not black and white. There are a lot of gray wolves in between.
Some of whom you keep out in the yard, while others you let into the house.
Choose your addictions wisely.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 12-12-2014 11:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2019 3:25 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 331 (849817)
03-22-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
03-22-2019 11:41 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:
My rational mind knows these things.
ringo writes:
And yet people do smoke and drink too much. Their rational minds know it isn't good for them but they do it anyway. Often they even use their rational minds to rationalize their irrational behaviour.
Thats what is called the Addictive Voice. I believe that rationality is a learning process.
ringo writes:
In the case of addiction, I don't think so.
Yes. Addiction is a brain disease. The prefrontal lobe heats up and numerous changes happen to the brain which locks a susceptible individual into an addiction. Thus, a large part of the "problem" is physical. RR and Jack Trimpey argue that much of the problem is mental as well. The animal brain, known in parlance as "The Beast" is the voice that cons yourself into allowing yourself to overindulge.
The issue is whether your rational mind recognizes your own bad habits and informs you when you've gone too far.
ringo writes:
And then you smoke or drink or gamble anyway.
Yes. It has happened. But it does not always happen, especially when I am paying attention and am mindful and aware of my feelings vs my actions.
That's what I'm saying. Why is it "nonsense" when I say it?
Because you always like to have the last word in an argument. Perhaps you become my rational voice and I become my own beast for a moment, summarily dismissing any and all of your claims. I feel offended at times that you try to win every argument. I believe. You don't. As for the "message", I suppose we can agree on that, but I'm not sure.
Phat writes:
Choose your addictions wisely.
ringo writes:
If we could choose our addictions, they wouldn't be addictions.
Perhaps you have a point.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 12:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 331 (849832)
03-22-2019 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
03-22-2019 12:07 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
ringo writes:
I'd divide Rational into Good Rational and Bad Rational. Bad Rational says there "must" be something beyond the natural and it stretches the rational beyond its limits to try to prove it. Good Rational is skeptical of Bad Rational.
So are you essentially arguing that the neocortex is skeptical of the limbic system?
Phat in September 2018 writes:
As far as my basic diet goes, it is low carb all the way...but once stability has been achieved and blood sugars brought back under control, restrictions on carb intake can be relaxed. As a diabetic, I can't let carbohydrate addiction bring me down.
I weigh 230. My overall goal is mental...Psychiatrists tell me that I need to move from anxiety into awareness and from addictive behavior(self-medicating the anxiety) into positive action. Again, the key word is balance and mindfulness. My overall goals are to simply become more aware of my responsibilities for my own personal health and the best methods for avoiding addictive behaviors in general.
Phat writes:
The animal brain, known in parlance as "The Beast" is the voice that cons yourself into allowing yourself to overindulge.
Today, March 22, 2019, I weigh roughly 220. (Plus or minus 3 lb) I plan on using my rational mind in this latest attempt to master my addictions.
ringo writes:
I don't think that's true. "The voice" is a product of the rational mind. Especially in an addiction like gambling, it's the rational mind that tells us what we can do with our winnings. I don't think the "animal brain" can anticipate such things.
I think that the rational mind is wise enough to know that there are no winnings. the rational mind allows itself to let the reptillian brain pleasure the body.
ringo writes:
Non sequitur.
Hmmmm...
non se·qui·tur
noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

Not every conclusion nor action of a rational person (or otherwise) is logical. Some actions are emotional and downright reptillian. The key is to recognize this fact and to determine which brain it comes from. Obviously both function together.
Trimpey argues that the animal brain somehow tries to trick the rationale of the neocortex into overindulging itself.
quote:
Ever wonder why alcoholics and problem drinkers drink so much? It’s because alcohol produces in them a pleasure greater than all others ” an unspoken pleasure far greater than the normal survival drives of sex, eating, family life, the desire to succeed in life, and physical safety. The resulting drive to repeat that pleasure is proportionately stronger than normal survival drives. Alcohol is a synthetic, man-made substance, among a group of synthetic drugs that produce pleasure greater than evolution has prepared us to manage, a disorienting pleasure that causes one's moral compass to point south toward death rather than toward true north and life. (...)Humans live by universal family values, such as these:
Honesty, integrity, personal responsibility, industriousness, love, affection, loyalty, self-discipline, compassion, cheer, generosity, and mutual respect
In addiction, these human traits are lost without being missed by the addict. Through human eyes, significant others see the addict's coarse, animal disposition and feel alienated from him/her.
ringo writes:
Would you feel better if I tried to lose? I could lose by going inactive like Faith. We could make EvC your personal blog where nobody ever disagrees with you.
Hey! not a bad idea! Except that nobody visits Faiths Blog and nobody would visit mine either.
  • Can someone live a life of balance? Can one drink rationally?
    Obviously the answer is yes, because many do. Not everything is black and white, as ringo pointed out. I would argue, however, that for someone caught in the throes of an addiction, the issue is very much black and white. The brain pattern is abberent. The behavior is unproductive. The issue becomes life or death.
  • Must I stop __________ forever? RR argues that when one honestly asks themselves this question, they become in effect double-minded if they are an addict. The rational mind rejoices at the simple decision. The other voice, feeling, reaction, beast, demon, or whatever...recoils at the prospect. Thus the double mindedness is confirmed.
  • Can double mindedness be cured?
    What does everyone think?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 237 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 12:07 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 239 by ringo, posted 03-23-2019 12:00 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 240 of 331 (849863)
    03-23-2019 3:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
    03-23-2019 12:00 PM


    Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
    ringo writes:
    That's exactly my point. The rational mind is on both sides.
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.
    Rom 7:13-25 writes:
    Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
    21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, with the mind, I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. NKJV
    Allow me to translate that into RATIONAL RECOVERY Speak.
    Rom 7:13-25
    Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But (reptilian brain) that it might appear carnal and addicted, was producing death in me through what is good,(distinguishing itself as the rational mind) so that pleasure through the commandment might become exceedingly tempting.. 14 For we know that the law(Rational Mind) is spiritual, but it is carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that it does not practice; but what I hate, that it does.. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the rational mind that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but (tghe reptilian brain) that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in my flesh nothing good dwells; for to will (to be rational and wise) is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, It does not do; but the evil I will not to do, that It practices. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but the reptilian brain that dwells in me.
    21 I find then a law, that evil (carnality and desire) is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.(Rational Conscience) 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.(If I allow it) 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, with the rational mind I myself serve the law of the message, but with the flesh the law of sin.
    NKJV
    See how that works? Whenever anyone says that "the devil made me do it" they really mean to say that they themselves allowed the reptillian brain to override the rational mind.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by ringo, posted 03-23-2019 12:00 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 242 by ringo, posted 03-24-2019 2:11 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 241 of 331 (849864)
    03-23-2019 3:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
    03-23-2019 12:00 PM


    Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
    We're not talking about the addict's perspective. We're looking at it from outside.
    We? *Looks Around* There is only I in the room.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by ringo, posted 03-23-2019 12:00 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-24-2019 2:13 PM Phat has replied
     Message 244 by Porkncheese, posted 03-26-2019 6:07 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 245 of 331 (849940)
    03-26-2019 12:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
    03-24-2019 2:13 PM


    Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
    Thre are two of us in the room. I and It. *Tag*...YOU are It!
    Seriously though, the addictive voice theory has a lot of common sense attached to it. The question is whether my rational mind adopts the role of I or whether my addictive voice seizes "it" as another easy cure.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 243 by ringo, posted 03-24-2019 2:13 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 246 by ringo, posted 03-26-2019 12:55 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 247 of 331 (849942)
    03-26-2019 12:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
    03-26-2019 12:55 PM


    Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
    I believe that you meant to say options rather than opinions. My rational mind has but one opinion.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 246 by ringo, posted 03-26-2019 12:55 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 248 by ringo, posted 03-26-2019 1:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 249 of 331 (849949)
    03-26-2019 1:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 248 by ringo
    03-26-2019 1:15 PM


    Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
    The problem is that your rational mind has two opinions - it may or may not listen to your addictive voice.
    "It" is my addictive voice.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 248 by ringo, posted 03-26-2019 1:15 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by ringo, posted 03-26-2019 2:01 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 251 of 331 (849951)
    03-27-2019 6:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 250 by ringo
    03-26-2019 2:01 PM


    Rational Mind vs Irrational Intrusive and Primitive Thoughts
    ringo writes:
    I've been trying to point out that your rational mind often has - and SHOULD have - two or more opinions of its own.
    Let's think about this for a moment.
    I perused the internet (often addicted thinking as opposed to rational) with the hope that I could find a source that could corroborate what I am trying to say. The Reptilian Brain could never hope to do this!
    Rational Thinking As A Process
    quote:
    ...When we see a juggler effortlessly tossing oranges in the air, we fail to appreciate the first stumbling efforts and the hours of practice that laid the groundwork for that proficiency. The same holds true for expert critical thinkers. All experts started as novices”struggling with basic concepts, questions, and issues”as they developed the thought processes that would help them make sense of things. The problem is that by the time they have achieved their expertise, many of those thought processes have become so automatic, internalized, and implicit that the experts have difficulty explaining explicitly how they think.
    Imagine learning to drive without guidance. What if you didn't know what constituted good driving? What if you had no model for how to drive, how to start a car, how to put the car in gear, and how and when to brake? How many of you would put your 16-year-old behind the wheel without providing any driving instruction, either formally or informally? Yet a similar situation occurs when our children are expected to think rationally. Furthermore, who taught us the basics of rational thinking? Where did we learn to arrive at sound conclusions? How will our children learn?
    The main reason that rational thinking is not addressed in the same way as learning to drive, write, or play a sport is that it has been treated primarily as an invisible process. It hasn't been regarded as something that can be broken down into a series of actionable steps. The focus in a thinking situation is typically on gathering the inputs”information, data, and opinions”not on how to organize and analyze them. Consequently, rational thinking has been an invisible process. People arrive at conclusions, but they don't know too much about how they get there. What are the unintended but real consequences of allowing thinking to be an invisible process? Here are a few:
    We are forced to learn about thinking through trial and error”an inefficient and often costly way to learn. Without an understanding of what constitutes good thinking, we cannot proactively critique and improve own thinking. We are forced to assess our success after the fact.
    We are limited in our ability to teach others to think rationally. If we do not clearly understand the process of thinking, how can we help others improve their thinking? What do we teach?

    ringo writes:
    That seems to contradict what you've been saying all along. You've been drawing a false dichotomy of "rational" mind versus "animal" mind.
    Now, the RR people claim that a rational mind stems from essentially the neocortex and that an addictive voice and tricky deceptive survivalist type of thinking (sex addict, for example) stems from the "Reptile Brain" or the Limbic System, or the Old Brain. They have precise terms for it in their course, but Jack Trimpety is hardly the final word on it. I'm no scientist so perhaps some of you could help me clarify my point or elaborate as you board my train of thought and chug through the canyon.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by ringo, posted 03-26-2019 2:01 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by ringo, posted 03-27-2019 12:36 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 252 of 331 (849952)
    03-27-2019 7:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 244 by Porkncheese
    03-26-2019 6:07 AM


    Rabbit Trail: Religion As An Addiction
    P&C writes:
    Thought ud be interested to hear I'm no longer agnostic.
    I'm a theist now I guess but without the bible though I still adhere to its morals.
    It's complicated. LoL
    It need not be. A Theist is basically a believer. Belief eliminates (or can eliminate)the need for evidence. Most atheists, secular humanists, and agnostics do not classify themselves as believers because they have chosen to require evidence for any spiritual claims, spaghetti monsters, leprechauns or Men claiming that God talks to them.
    In to they say that God is undefinable which is what I kinda think.
    I don't know about bible stories and their literal applications.
    I just feel there is a greater power.
    Does this feeling come from your rational mind or is it simply a warm fuzzy addiction?
    Psychedelic drugs like DMT, shrooms and Ketamine gives a person much to think about if they have enough of it to break into this other dimension. Quite easy to blow off as "drugs" and dismiss these visions to those who haven't experienced it.
    I used to do shrooms with my buddies back in the day. (Thankfully 30 years + I fondly recall the effects. Not that I would experiment today! I have enough challenges eating healthy, avoiding pornography, and staying away from that funny machine where you pull the lever! Sometimes I think I'm evolved from Pavlov's Dog!
    Our knowledge is so limited. I see drugs on campus daily and try my best to stay away.
    I have a sweet spot for these mind-expanding psychedelics that take u to places your mind cannot possibly conceive. Then make us return like Greek philosophers.
    In addition, keep in mind that Plato and Aristotle never had the internet! I think that giving them a smartphone would dull their intelligence rapidly, however.
    P&C writes:
    DMT and Kay have been used on mentally ill patients interestingly. Also interesting to look at what Portugal did in their radical approach to drug addiction.
    Quick question. No offense, P&C, but do you google this stuff when you are stoned? I recall that when I ingested LSD or Shrooms I couldn't even watch TV much less understand my brain. I was my own guinea pig.
    Actually I'm a lot like Jordan Peterson now.
    I've seen the name pop up here and there but am unfamiliar with him. Does he know anything about addictions?
    A large umbrella on the subject of God and morals as not to fall into dogma. I can see how Sam Harris and some others find him frustrating cos his Illmatic. Not fixed. Especially seeing Sam is up for a fair discussion.
    My current favorite is Matt Dillahunty. Faith rolls her eyes and grabs a crucifix whenever I dare to question the Calvinistic Tablets brought down from the Mountain (near Kentucky). I refuse to be addicted to religion, though my addictive voice often speaks for Him and I plug my ears whenever jar tells me (used to tell me) to Throw God Away.
    I'm still at school.
    Me too! ringo is today's guest lecturer. If he starts spinning, I might look over at you and ask if someone spiked the water cooler!
    Love physics as applied on earth. Isaac Newton number 1 genius man forever in my book. Da Vinci and Tesla make up my top 3. Karl Popper I still love with his no bullshit approach. Einstein would be 5th.
    Top 5? What are these names the top of? We were discussing religion and addictions. On a side note, notice how occasionally our brains are all over the map. Follow my train of thought regarding addictions.
    Astrophysics I'm afraid is lost in space but and has regressed into the same kind of storytelling rhetoric as other theoretical sciences have with this multiverse theory or hypothesis taken out of Darwinism.
    So yes even less respect for the theoretic sciences I have now. They don't represent the applied sciences I work in. We, along with other practical branches in science, including Biology are moving to branch away from theoretical science at my school.
    We don't want to be associated with such bs artists.
    We? Am I or the class here at EvC part of this group construct? And which brain is talking right now?
    I still love thinking about philosophy and religion but and it's visible impact on society. (...)Why do Christians pray to humans like St Peter and the Virgin Mary when it's defying the first 2 commandments.
    Our rabbit just ran off the trail. Why did I use to trick myself into saying that I never spent money on gambling? I just invested it in a dream. God was supposed to somehow magically chain the inner workings of the random number generator that printed the tickets!
    My Addictive Voice never learns!
    Edited by Phat, : added video

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 244 by Porkncheese, posted 03-26-2019 6:07 AM Porkncheese has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024