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Author Topic:   The Evolution Theory is a Myth Equivalent to the Flat Earth Theory
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 248 (836309)
07-15-2018 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by herebedragons
07-14-2018 4:21 PM


Re: No New Functions?
I see no relevance to your preoccupation with the molecular level HBD.

How about just acknowledging that a mutation's changing an allele, at best can only change whatever that gene governs, so if it's a gene for fur color the mutation is only going to affect fur color? Pretty simple it seems to me.

And then Dr. A gave an example of antibiotic resistance changing the trait itself. Whatever the trait was originally who knows, he didn't say, but it is no longer that trait, it is now antibiotic resistance. Therefore the mutation destroyed that trait. How is it conducive to evolution for whole genes to be destroyed like that?

Sure I suppose you can "just modify existing traits" but not unless the genetic material for the modification is already present. If an organism already has the genetic stuff for making both arms and wings it could make either, but if it only has the stuff for making arms it isn't going to make a wing. Unless you can show how mutatons could bring that about.

Besides which wings are usually part of a whole different kind of body structure than arms are. All that has to be modified. Not something mutations could accomplish it seems to me.


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Tangle
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Posts: 8551
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(5)
Message 62 of 248 (836316)
07-15-2018 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
07-15-2018 1:22 AM


Re: No New Functions?
Faith writes:

Besides which wings are usually part of a whole different kind of body structure than arms are. All that has to be modified. Not something mutations could accomplish it seems to me.

Bat or some bloke down the pub with big hands?


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forexhr
Member (Idle past 1342 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-13-2015


Message 63 of 248 (836319)
07-15-2018 6:08 AM


The responses in this topic are a textbook confirmation of the title of the article at hand, which states that "The Evolution Theory is a Myth Equivalent to the Flat Earth Theory". In other words, we have two simple facts that are easy to prove. The first is that the Earth is round and the second is that there has been a lack of variations for new biological functions to form. But, just as the Flat Earthers deny the first fact through a complex network of rationalizations, explanations and logical fallacies, people in this topic deny the second fact by using the same modus operandi. The crucial point of the article is this: "previously non-existent biological functions cannot be formed by the evolutionary processes..." because ... "the possible number of biologically nonfunctional structures, and the functional space size of pre-existing structures, are so big, that it is physically impossible to overcome them with the available molecular rearrangements." Now, has anyone here even tried to address this crucial point? No, of course no one has. So, this point is ignored in the same way as the Flat Earthers ignore the spherical shape of the Earth when they try to rationalize their theory. And ignorance of the facts make people do all sorts of irrational things, like putting words in mouths that have never spoken or misquoting in a twisted manner, and using unconscious psychological mechanisms, like rationalization, where ignorance is masked as rational or logical explanation. I didn't open this topic to discuss someone's psychological defense mechanisms or to address all potential logical fallacies that fact deniers can come up with, but to discuss the insufficient variations. All those who are not interested in this issue are free to rationalize their personal beliefs somewhere else.

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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 64 of 248 (836326)
07-15-2018 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
07-15-2018 1:22 AM


Re: No New Functions?
How about just acknowledging that a mutation's changing an allele, at best can only change whatever that gene governs, so if it's a gene for fur color the mutation is only going to affect fur color? Pretty simple it seems to me.

HBD wrote an excellent message pointing out that you are wrong, it's not simple.

Phenotypic traits depend on more than one gene. Each gene is often involved in multiple phenotypic traits.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 07-15-2018 1:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 07-15-2018 9:09 AM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 248 (836329)
07-15-2018 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by JonF
07-15-2018 8:57 AM


Re: No New Functions?
Phenotypic traits depend on more than one gene. Each gene is often involved in multiple phenotypic traits.

It IS true that many genes are usually involved in ONE phenotypic trait, but one gene for many traits: not that I know of. So prove it.

HBD managed to go on and on without ever addressing the point, which amounts to nothing but obfuscation. And you have certainly not addressed it. So I'll repeat my request:

Please just acknowledge that an allele changed by mutation can at best only change whatever that gene governs, so if it's a gene for fur color the mutation is only going to affect fur color.

(Even if you were right that it could affect many traits, such a change would only affect those particular designated traits because the gene determines what those traits are.)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 680 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 66 of 248 (836334)
07-15-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by forexhr
07-15-2018 6:08 AM


Just for fun ...
... The Evolution Theory ...

Could you describe in your own words what the theory of evolution is?

... that there has been a lack of variations for new biological functions to form. ...

Because it seems that you are operating under a false impression.

Just curious.

Enjoy

ps -- your participation in answering people's posts rather than just posting pot-shots would be appreciated.

you could also work on paragraphs to make your message more readable.

Edited by RAZD, :


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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to share.


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PaulK
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Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 67 of 248 (836336)
07-15-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
07-15-2018 9:09 AM


Re: No New Functions?
quote:

Please just acknowledge that an allele changed by mutation can at best only change whatever that gene governs, so if it's a gene for fur color the mutation is only going to affect fur color.

The only thing that a gene directly governs is the protein it codes for.
Change the gene and you (usually) get a slightly different protein.

It’s not obfuscation to point out that the reality of how you get from genes to phenotypic traits like hair colour is not simple and you can’t be sure that the protein doesn’t have other uses which might be affected. Melanin, for instance is involved in skin and eye colour but also has other effects.


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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 68 of 248 (836337)
07-15-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
07-15-2018 9:09 AM


Re: No New Functions?
It IS true that many genes are usually involved in ONE phenotypic trait

Your posts continue to seem as if you don't know that.

but one gene for many traits: not that I know of. So prove it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hox_gene:

quote:
Hox genes, a subset of homeotic genes, are a group of related genes that control the body plan of an embryo along the head-tail axis. After the embryonic segments have formed, the Hox proteins determine the type of appendages (e.g. legs, antennae, and wings in fruit flies ) or the different types of vertebrae (in humans) that will form on a segment. Hox proteins thus confer segmental identity, but do not form the actual segments themselves.

Please just acknowledge that an allele changed by mutation can at best only change whatever that gene governs, so if it's a gene for fur color the mutation is only going to affect fur color.

Can't do that. It would be lying. See HBD's excellent exposition.

(Even if you were right that it could affect many traits, such a change would only affect those particular designated traits because the gene determines what those traits are.)

You'll never figure it out if you insist on avoiding real molecular genetics and stick to your fantasized version.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19615
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 69 of 248 (836342)
07-15-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by forexhr
07-15-2018 6:08 AM


forexhr writes:

The crucial point of the article is this....


If that's the crucial point, why didn't the scientists who did the work notice it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 248 (836343)
07-15-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by JonF
07-15-2018 12:34 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Your quote about Hox genes:

Wikipedia writes:

Hox genes, a subset of homeotic genes, are a group of related genes that control the body plan of an embryo along the head-tail axis. After the embryonic segments have formed, the Hox proteins determine the type of appendages (e.g. legs, antennae, and wings in fruit flies ) or the different types of vertebrae (in humans) that will form on a segment. Hox proteins thus confer segmental identity, but do not form the actual segments themselves.

...does not suggest anything about a single gene governing more than one trait, which is what I thought we were discussing. It says this group of genes governs "segmental identity." From the actual quote we could conclude that they do this by one gene per segment identity, which is the usual relation as I've been seeing it.

There is nothing fantasized about the fact that SOME genes (and so far nobody has given evidence of any other kind) govern a particular phenotypic trait or function and you are just indulging in evasion.

And again HBD made a lot of showy remarks without once addressing the relationship of gene to trait.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 248 (836345)
07-15-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by PaulK
07-15-2018 11:12 AM


Re: No New Functions?
The only thing that a gene directly governs is the protein it codes for.
Change the gene and you (usually) get a slightly different protein.

YES YOU DO. But that protein produced by a particular gene, a particular segment of DNA, that governs a particular trait, WHICH IS A WELL KNOWN FACT, will only produce a version of whate4ver that trait is. If it's fur color it may produce a different fur color, it WILL NOT produce curly fur or green eyes or wings. ONLY A FUR COLOR. Because that is what the gene DOES.

It’s not obfuscation to point out that the reality of how you get from genes to phenotypic traits like hair colour is not simple

WHO SAID THE PROCESS IS SIMPLE? The point is that you will get whatever the gene governs under normal circumstances how3ever complicated the processes may be. (I'm not sure antibiotic resistance is a normal circumstance but in any case that illustrates a different problem with the claim that mutations further evolution: destruction of a trait. But that is a different subject. With genes known to code for a particular trait, all a mutation could possibly do is produce another version of that particular trait.

can’t be sure that the protein doesn’t have other uses which might be affected. or instance is involved in skin and eye colour but also has other effects.

Utterly irrelevant. You are guessing for one thing but mostly you are just avoiding the simple point that if a gene governs a KNOWN TRAIT, you are only going to get variations of THAT PARTICULAR TRAIT. If it ALSO governs OTHER traits, unknown ones, about which you are wildly speculating, but known or unknown, still all you can get is variations of those other traits as well. It is always going to be specific to the trait or traits governed by that gene.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 72 of 248 (836346)
07-15-2018 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
07-15-2018 4:33 PM


Re: No New Functions?
quote:

YES YOU DO. But that protein produced in a particular gene, a particular segment of DNA, that governs a particular trait, WHICH IS A WELL KNOWN FACT, will only produce a version of whate4ver that trait is.

Which is a common misunderstanding, not a fact. Consider the various functions of melanin.

quote:

WHO SAID THE PROCESS IS SIMPLE?

You seem to think it is a simple matter of one gene, one trait. It isn’t.

quote:

I'm not sure antibiotic resistance is a normal circumstance

Given that antibiotics do occur naturally (remember how penicillin was discovered) I’d be surprised if it wasn't.

quote:

but mostly you are just avoiding the simple point that if a gene governs a KNMOWN TRAIT, you are onlyt going to get variations on THAT PARTICULAR TRAIT. Ifr it ALSO governs OTHER traits, unknown ones, about which you are wildly spe3culating, then if that was known all you can gtet is variations on those other traits as well.

You mean that all the known functions of melanin are wild speculation ? And how can we only get variation in one trait and get variations in other traits too ? Come to that, what is a trait ? Isn’t the ear fold in Scottish Fold cats a new trait ?


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 248 (836351)
07-15-2018 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
07-15-2018 4:44 PM


Re: No New Functions?
If you are going to talk about something like melanin EXPLAIN WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. You are otherwise just doing the usual evasion.

"All the known functions" ? In one gene?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 248 (836352)
07-15-2018 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
07-15-2018 4:44 PM


Re: No New Functions?

You mean that all the known functions of melanin are wild speculation ? And how can we only get variation in one trait and get variations in other traits too ?

This suggests you are talking about melanin as a protein produced by different genes? If so it produces different traits according to which gene is producing it. I'm sure many genes produce the same protein but the gene itself determines what the protein does in the phenotype.

You are just multiplying evasive methods with your comments.

Come to that, what is a trait ? Isn’t the ear fold in Scottish Fold cats a new trait ?

It is a new form of ear produced by a mutationj to the gene that governs the structure or form of cat ears. The trait is cat ear form or structure, different alleles control different variations on the cat ear.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 248 (836353)
07-15-2018 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
07-15-2018 4:44 PM


Re: No New Functions?
You seem to think it is a simple matter of one gene, one trait. It isn’t.

In many cases, maybe most -- maybe even all if you'd all get your brains unscrewed from whatever nonsense you prefer to be true rather than what I'm saying -- in many cases it IS a simple matter of one gene, one trait.

In any case I'm asking you to acknowledge THOSE cases instead of multiplying irrelevant objections for the purpose of obscuring the point.

Of course it's obvious that this simple point even if it pertains only to SOME genes, is a challenge to the ToE. That's why you're all falling all over yourselves to invent ridiculous objections to it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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