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Author Topic:   The Evolution Theory is a Myth Equivalent to the Flat Earth Theory
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 106 of 248 (836429)
07-16-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Taq
07-16-2018 4:43 PM


Re: No New Functions?
I don't claim they are science, I just claim in particular cases like this one that I'm right, and so far I haven't seen any really substantial evidence that I'm not. Stands to reson doesn't it that a duplicate would do whast the original did? Do you have evidence to the contraryz?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Taq, posted 07-16-2018 4:43 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 107 of 248 (836431)
07-16-2018 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
07-16-2018 3:14 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Seems to me a duplicate would do whatever the gene it duplicates does.

Until it mutates, yes. After... maybe, maybe not. Maybe it doesn't do anything. Maybe it does something different.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 3:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 5:55 PM JonF has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8523
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 108 of 248 (836432)
07-16-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
07-16-2018 5:06 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Faith writes:

I don't claim they are science, I just claim in particular cases like this one that I'm right, and so far I haven't seen any really substantial evidence that I'm not.

Bare assertions lacking evidence are also not facts and not science. At least the author of the essay in the opening post attempt to gather some evidence, even if it turned out to be bad evidence in the long run.

Stands to reson doesn't it that a duplicate would do whast the original did? Do you have evidence to the contraryz?

It is your claim, so it is your burden of proof. I see no reason to disprove a claim that has no evidence to back it.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 248 (836434)
07-16-2018 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by JonF
07-16-2018 5:27 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Seems to me a duplicate would do whatever the gene it duplicates does.

Until it mutates, yes. After... maybe, maybe not. Maybe it doesn't do anything. Maybe it does something different.

But mutation can only change the variation on the phenotype as I keep saying, not the phenotype itself. If it governs fur color it will change the fur color. That's all.


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 Message 107 by JonF, posted 07-16-2018 5:27 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 07-16-2018 6:00 PM Faith has replied
 Message 113 by JonF, posted 07-16-2018 9:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8523
Joined: 03-06-2009


(2)
Message 110 of 248 (836435)
07-16-2018 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
07-16-2018 5:55 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Faith writes:

But mutation can only change the variation on the phenotype as I keep saying, not the phenotype itself.

You need some evidence to back this claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 5:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 6:15 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 248 (836437)
07-16-2018 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Taq
07-16-2018 6:00 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Shouldn't need evidence, it's well known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 07-16-2018 6:00 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 5 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 112 of 248 (836438)
07-16-2018 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
07-16-2018 6:15 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Is not!

How’s that for a snappy response?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 6:15 PM Faith has replied

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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 113 of 248 (836439)
07-16-2018 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
07-16-2018 5:55 PM


Re: No New Functions?
But mutation can only change the variation on the phenotype as I keep saying, not the phenotype itself

Yes, you do say that.

Over and over and over and over again.

Over and over and over and over again.

No evidence, no attempt at logical argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 5:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 11:32 PM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 114 of 248 (836441)
07-16-2018 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by JonF
07-16-2018 9:45 PM


Re: No New Functions?
I keep repeating myself because nobody acknowledges this very simple obvious point.

Alleles make a protein that makes a certain fur color in a gene for fur color. A mutation changes the sequence of an allele so if it does anything at all it can only change the fur color in a gene for fur color.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 127 by Taq, posted 07-17-2018 1:03 PM Faith has replied
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 07-17-2018 1:09 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 115 of 248 (836442)
07-16-2018 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Coragyps
07-16-2018 8:37 PM


Re: No New Functions?
Wikipedia on "Gene" writes:

Genes can acquire mutations in their sequence, leading to different variants, known as alleles, in the population. These alleles encode slightly different versions of a protein, which cause different phenotypical traits.

Different variations
Different versions of a protein
which cause different phenotypic traits

Do I have to say that if it's a gene for fur color the different phenotypic trait won't be something other than fur color, say maybe fur texture or bushiness of the tail, it will only be a different color of fur?


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 116 of 248 (836443)
07-17-2018 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
07-16-2018 11:32 PM


Re: No New Functions?
quote:

I keep repeating myself because nobody acknowledges this very simple obvious point.

Nobody agrees with you because you’re wrong. You should be used to that by now. At best you are presenting a hypothetical example of one gene and assuming that all genes must work the same way.

It’s hardly an argument worth the effort of writing once, let alone over and over again.

quote:

Alleles make a protein that makes a certain fur color in a gene for fur color.

I think you will find that your hypothetical case is not the normal situation - certainly not for fur colour.

quote:

A mutation changes the sequence of an allele so if it does anything at all it can only change the fur color in a gene for fur color.

So if you have a gene for fur colour that can never have any other function it can only affect fur colour. And the point is ? It’s all hypothetical, not proof of anything.

Even the example of citrate utilisation in E Coli should give you pause. The relevant change caused one or more genes to be active in a case where they wouldn’t have been before. While you could argue that there was no additional use in that case, it seems fairly obvious that that is a feature of that example and not something that is necessarily true of all cases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 07-16-2018 11:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 07-17-2018 12:14 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 117 of 248 (836444)
07-17-2018 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by PaulK
07-17-2018 12:06 AM


Re: No New Functions?
You are denying the obvious.

The point is simple. The gene, or whatever the genetic determinant is --, only does what it does, --Doesn't matter if the gene codes for half a dozen different phenotypic traits it's still going to code for those and no others ------.so changes to it will only change how that thing it does does it, it won't cause it to do anything else. This is just one of many limitations to the change required by the ToE if the ToE actually works. It doesn't.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 118 of 248 (836445)
07-17-2018 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
07-17-2018 12:14 AM


Re: No New Functions?
quote:

You are denying the obvious.

Nope.

quote:

The point is simple. The gene, or whatever the genetic determinant is --, only does what it does

And what it does - at the level you are looking at - can change. It may be able to do more things - if only it was produced at the right place and time. That is one thing you need to understand.

It’s not even hypothetical. We know for a fact that the location and timing can be changed. We have evidence that genes have been recruited for new functions.

Gene Co-Option in Physiological and Morphological Evolution

And let us not forget that a major part of forexhr’s argument is the appearance of new genes. How does that fit into your argument ?


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forexhr
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-13-2015


Message 119 of 248 (836446)
07-17-2018 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dr Adequate
07-16-2018 12:14 PM


So, evolution has demonstrably occurred, but you have a theoretical argument proving that it can't, and you're not going to let mere facts stand in the way of your theory.

And you're comparing who to flat-Earthers? People other than yourself?


Of course, evolution has occurred and it occurs everyday, every hour and every minute all around us. This is because "evolution" is defined by mutations, gene migration, natural selection and genetic drift, which are processes that demonstrably occure in nature. And this is something I stated explicitly in the article: "Since these four processes are factual, i.e. they are known by actual experience or observation, we can use the scientific method to test whether they really can do what the evolutionary idea holds they can do..."

So, my argument says nothing contrary to the fact of evolution. What it says is that evolution cannot produce previously non-existent biological functions due to insufficient molecular rearrangements in the gene pools of populations. Nothing more and nothing less. And this is something you completely ignored with your "putting words into someone's mouth" logical fallacy.

I must admit, you people are real masters of distraction, ignorance and logical fallacies, just like all fact-deniers are. I am curious, how do you deal with all the cognitive dissonances that result from such irrational behavior?


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forexhr
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-13-2015


Message 120 of 248 (836447)
07-17-2018 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Taq
07-16-2018 12:55 PM


I already disproved your claims in previous posts. Perhaps you should check them out. Given your refusal to address posts disproving your claims, it would seem that you have more in common with the flat earthers than we do.

You disproved precisely and absolutely nothing. You just did what all fact-deniers do: deliberately introduced irrelevant subject into the discussion in order to divert from the issue at hand. Genotype-phenotype relationship has nothing to do with the fact that previously non-existent functions can come into existence only through molecular rearrangements, and with the fact that these rearrangements are greatly insufficient since they must overcome both the functional space size of pre-existing structures and all possible junk structures that do not provide biological functions. So, regardless if a particular phenotype is coded with one gene or with dozens of genes, its emergence still depends on available variations. In other words, you haven’t disproved my claims. Instead, you’ve thrown up an utterly irrelevant subject to distract from my claims, and in that way committed a non sequitur logical fallacy in your reasoning. Better luck next time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Taq, posted 07-16-2018 12:55 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 07-17-2018 2:04 AM forexhr has replied
 Message 130 by Taq, posted 07-17-2018 1:13 PM forexhr has replied

  
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