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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member
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Earlier this year, the Trump administration declassified a memo written by the Republican majority of the House Intelligence Committee claiming that the FBI's investigation of people associated with Trump's presidential campaign was an abuse of its authority and attempting to bolster Trump's claims that the FBI was "spying" on his campaign out of political bias.
However, according to an article in The New York Times this morning,
the government released the court documents in which the F.B.I. made its case for conducting the surveillance records that plainly demonstrated that key elements of Republicans’ claims about the bureau’s actions were misleading or false.... But in respect after respect, the newly disclosed documents instead corroborated rebuttals by Democrats on the panel who had seen the top-secret materials and accused Republicans of mischaracterizing them to protect the president. The Republicans' memo claims that the FBI's application for a warrant for their surveillance relied heavily on information from a former British intelligence officer, Christopher Steele, without telling the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that Steele was being paid by the Democratic Party for his research and therefore was unreliable; this is also supposed to imply that the FBI itself is motivated by political bias. As it turns out, the FBI did point out to the Court about Steele's possible bias.
Now we can see that the footnote disclosing Steele’s possible bias takes up more than a full page in the applications, so there is literally no way the FISA Court could have missed it, he wrote on the blog Lawfare. The F.B.I. gave the court enough information to evaluate Steele’s credibility. Furthermore, the applications for surveillance included more information than Steele's dossier:
The application materials also identify the four judges who approved the wiretap and its extensions; all are appointees of Republican presidents. And while much of the material is redacted, it shows that the number of pages included in each application grew significantly, suggesting that the government was likely adding new information, such as discussing the information it obtained from the wiretap, to justify its request to prolong the surveillance. Added by edit:I should point out that the surveillance was on someone involved with Trump's campaign after he had left it. But it's being portrayed as part of a "witch hunt" against Trump and those associated with him. Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.What do you despise? By this are you truly known. -- Frank Herbert |
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1492 From: Ky U.S. Joined: |
Technically speaking, Russians voted for Trump and are considered geniuses for it Christians don't believe that the socialist/communists of Russia would favor a free-market, capitalist supporter like Trump over a socialist/communist supporter like Hillary. It's just common sense.
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Christians understand that Jesus was a Socialist/Communist.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1492 From: Ky U.S. Joined:
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To start;
You've replied to not a single specific Trump comment or action I cited in my previous message while merely repeating your empty claims about the media. I'm only here at this time to make it as clear as I can why Christians support him. Most all of the other Pro-Trump / anti-Trump discussion is raging all over the country, I don't have the time for it. I might not have time to get to both of your messages tonight, but I'll try to in the coming evenings. But if you don't believe the media is heavily biased against Trump, we might not have much more do discuss. It's documented which party most all the high profile reporters and anchors vote for, and youtube is full of their reaction of his being elected back in November of 2016. They couldn't hide the bias.
The above graph of Trump lies includes omissions of truth. Impeachment has been the number 1 priority of the Democrats and the news media ever since that fateful evening of November 2016. I'm not surprised that many in the news media were assigned to compile "lie charts". Let's examine what "lies" actually are. Lies of any sort are condemned by the Bible. They can be very minor, or they can be severe. (see Message 2219 for a really severe one) A common greeting in the U.S. is "How are you?" (here in Kentucky it can often be "How ya doin") And the answer is often "Fine". Any lying involved? Of course there is, most times the one asking "how are you" doesn't give a rat's rear end how someone is. And the person answering "fine" also isn't perfectly fine every time. Are these lies crimes, or are they just human nature? How many of Trump's lies (specified on your chart) are equally this innocent? I'm sure if Trump passed Jim Acosta in the halls of the capitol and asked "how ya doin", (in keeping with the MAGA hat he had on) Acosta wouldn't answer, he'd be so excited as he got on his phone and immediately spread it out to all other reporters "Cha-ching!!! I just got him in another lie, he asked how I was and I know he doesn't really care!!! He is largely on the same receiving end of media bombardment as Sarah Sanders is. They have many days to carefully craft gotcha questions, and either way she answers can be jumped on, then twisted and distorted to make it look like she said something different than she did yesterday, or a week ago. I don't even know why Trump allows those briefings, they're supposed to be informative for the public, and all they are is attack dog fests. On my local ABC news channel, which is usually non-political as it covers local news, showed a brief clip of ABC's Cecelia Vega asking something about the possibility of Trump having early stages of dementia. Since they tried that line back during the campaign and it didn't work then, what makes them think it will work now? We hear that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I'd have to question Vega's mental stability.
False. Democrats support measures to tighten border security, but they don’t support Trump’s plans for a border wall or other parts of his aggressive immigration agenda. Tighten how? There's no evidence that they have anything but empty talk. That's all Obama had for 8 years.
False. North Korea conducted 74 missile tests during the Obama administration, or roughly one test every five and a half weeks. The rate was far higher during Trump’s first year in office: 20 tests, or roughly one test every two and a half weeks. But they've stopped now haven't they? Many Americans haven't noticed, because it's not on the news.
False. The special counsel continues to investigate Russian interference in the 2016 election and there’s no word yet whether Trump’s campaign colluded with the Russians. That's right, there's STILL no real evidence. Yet the wasteful witch hunt continues.
No one is saying Trump never says anything that is true, but if Trump has stated "TRUTHS that need to be said" then please tell us what they are. I've already mentioned one, "China is killing us on trade". He has said many things that are true, yet offensive to most Washington insiders, including some in his own party. He doesn't care, if they're true.
Don't you think that most anyone hearing a news report labeled "fake news" will believe they're being told the account is false? I think they could also believe, as I do, that they're being cleverly mis-lead, in such a way that the misleaders can't be officially called on it. Like the "Trump "crossed a lot of lines" caption that I referred to earlier. It happens a LOT.
We're talking about news. All news outlets have opinion pages or segments, including Fox News and Breitbart - that's not what we're discussing. And it's often really hard to distinguish between what is opinion and what is supposed to be unbiased fact. There is very little unbiased journalism anymore - there's no money in it. It's clear to most Christians that the DNC has bought and paid for all the mainstream media. And the RNC owns Fox. It is what it is.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2283 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Also: Russia isn't socialist/communist anymore. It's a kleptocracy with Putin at the helm.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1492 From: Ky U.S. Joined:
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You sound proud that Christians are behaving politically in order to enforce their own religiously based beliefs of morality upon those outside their religion who believe differently. Traditional morals and adherence to the Constitution aren't religiously based beliefs. They're behaving politically to resist socialism.
And I gave you much more evidence than you responded to, providing his tweets of attacking the free press, The wonderful, innocent free press, yes. Do you know how conservative Joe Scarborough was as Florida congressman during the 90's? Do you know who he is now? Did MSNBC lock him in a Dr Who style Tardis, and re-program him, or did they just tell him to do as he's told, and then they'll determine if he'll keep his cushy anchor job?
name calling and attacking individuals like Peter Strzok and Lisa Page. Do you know what Peter Strzok said and did? I know it's okay with you, but try to understand why it's not okay with Christians. They know that most of Trump's assertiveness and lack of manners is reactionary.
All the evidence suggests that Trump is striking out at everyone and everything else and that the media is merely reporting it. Trump is the source of hate, not the target of it. Striking out? Come on, you're using the wrong terminology. The ABC term is "lashing out". Every time Trump says much of anything, he's "lashing out". The angry news media, they never lash out. Maxine Waters? Never. They just have "outcries". Out of time tonight. And I'm not seeing much more to inspire me to further clarify why Christians support Trump. It's a fact that they do however, I heard tonight on Fox that his ratings are at an all time high. Oh but in the coming days I want to address the "lie" thing more. Message 2219 contains a whopper that 10,000 Trump lies couldn't offset.
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And when it was Socialist/Communist it was a Democracy just as it is now.
Edited by jar, : applin spallin
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Out of time tonight. And I'm not seeing much more to inspire me to further clarify why Christians support Trump. It's a fact that they do however, I heard tonight on Fox that his ratings are at an all time high. Thanks for sharing as much as you did. I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed. It is probably because I was hoping for more "cerebral" explanations that were different from the stereotypical wingnut stuff I imagine, and instead I am getting confirmation from you directly, and from Faith who seems to applaud every conspiracy theory you invoke. Trump's ratings are at an all-time high, for Trump, with 88% of Republicans backing him. I find it difficult to believe that most of them would cite the reasons you give here, but I don't see much intelligent discourse about that and I don't know where I would find any. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Are the Trumpesheviks misusing the word "conspiracy"? Or do the really believe that the editors of the major newspapers and networks get together in secret meetings with leaders of factions in the Justice Dept and intelligence agencies and the leaders of the ACLU, NAACP, Al Qaeda, and so forth to discuss how they're going to get Trump?
What do you despise? By this are you truly known. -- Frank Herbert
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
From today's AAAS Policy alert:
quote: What is happening within the Grand Old Party? The bill stands a near zero chance of even getting a hearing but just the idea of a modern GOP politician suggesting carbon taxes would be as unimaginable as a Republican supporting tariffs or abandoning free trade or making public threats to other nations or ... Wait. What is happening within the Grand Old Party?
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-FL) In the environmentalist news, it's been a pretty good bet that the first cracks in the Republicans anti-climate change wall would be in Florida, the state that has the most to lose from climate change. (What does Florida have to lose? Florida!)What do you despise? By this are you truly known. -- Frank Herbert
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
More evidence for climate change: Heat Wave Scorches Sweden as Wildfires Rage in the Arctic Circle
Trumpist Republicans: Nothing going on here folks. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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marc9000 writes: Most all of the other Pro-Trump / anti-Trump discussion is raging all over the country, I don't have the time for it. Of course you don't have time for discussing Trump. That's why you posted all the long messages in this thread.
I might not have time to get to both of your messages tonight, but I'll try to in the coming evenings. Take all the time you need. No one's in a hurry.
But if you don't believe the media is heavily biased against Trump, we might not have much more do discuss. I understand you believe Trump is a great guy doing a great job, but merely reporting what Trump does and says cannot be bias. For example, Trump still believes Putin over his intelligence agencies, and the media have reported this. That's not bias, that's truth.
It's documented which party most all the high profile reporters and anchors vote for, and youtube is full of their reaction of his being elected back in November of 2016. They couldn't hide the bias. Are you talking about news reporters or prognosticators? If you're talking about news reporters then post links to news particles or post YouTube videos where reporters have let their bias affect their reporting.
Impeachment has been the number 1 priority of the Democrats and the news media ever since that fateful evening of November 2016. Where did you get that idea? Until recently (due to Trump's increasing efforts to obstruct justice) most prominent Democrats seem to have thought it a bad idea. I readily concede that very recently the Democratic position is evolving depending upon what happens with the Mueller investigation and control of the houses of Congress. Here's a New York Times editorial urging against impeachment: Democrats: Don’t Take the Bait on Impeachment I'm going to ignore the absurd part of your post that rambles on about what lying is and suggests that a reporter might do something as ridiculous as reporting Trump asking "How ya doin'?" as a lie.
He is largely on the same receiving end of media bombardment as Sarah Sanders is. They have many days to carefully craft gotcha questions, and either way she answers can be jumped on, then twisted and distorted to make it look like she said something different than she did yesterday, or a week ago. But Trump does keep changing his positions. The most recent example is his position on accepting the judgment of his intelligent agencies on Russian meddling in the 2016 election. There is video of him saying opposite things multiple times on multiple consecutive days.
I don't even know why Trump allows those briefings, they're supposed to be informative for the public, and all they are is attack dog fests. If Trump feels uncomfortable with his press secretary answering questions about his lies and equivocations then instead of shrouding his administration in darkness he should start being clear and truthful. Fascism thrives in obscurity and darkness. (DaShanne Stokes, sociologist, author and speaker)
On my local ABC news channel, which is usually non-political as it covers local news, showed a brief clip of ABC's Cecilia Vega asking something about the possibility of Trump having early stages of dementia. Since they tried that line back during the campaign and it didn't work then, what makes them think it will work now? We hear that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I'd have to question Vega's mental stability. At the press briefing on President Trump's physical, Vega asked White House physician Ronny Jackson, "Are you ruling out things like early onset Alzheimer's? Are you looking at dementia-like symptoms?" Seems a fair question since people were looking for explanations for Trump's gaffes and inconsistency across so many issues.
False. Democrats support measures to tighten border security, but they don’t support Trump’s plans for a border wall or other parts of his aggressive immigration agenda. Tighten how? There's no evidence that they have anything but empty talk. That's all Obama had for 8 years. Obama deported more illegal immigrants than any prior administration. A wall is not the answer. In fact, it's a stupid answer. It would be like damming up a river and expecting it to stop the flow of water. A dam can only hold back the water for so long, then the reservoir fills and the water spills across the gates. Same with desperate immigrants. You can build a wall, but they'll just find other ways around. The correct way to address immigration is first to understand that immigration is good. It begins with people at the bottom of the economic ladder but who are willing to work and strive for a better life that within a couple generations has their children in colleges and working in the professions. Cutting off immigration leads to bad outcomes. It sends countries in the same direction as Japan, which has a declining and aging population causing dire economic straights.
False. North Korea conducted 74 missile tests during the Obama administration, or roughly one test every five and a half weeks. The rate was far higher during Trump’s first year in office: 20 tests, or roughly one test every two and a half weeks. But they've stopped now haven't they? Many Americans haven't noticed, because it's not on the news. The original point was that Trump's claim that North Korean nuclear testing was worse under Obama was false. The truth is that it was worse under Trump. And under Trump North Korea completed development of their capability to deliver nuclear missiles to the American mainland, then announced they were done, then announced they wanted talks, and Trump agreed to those talks. But no one (except maybe Trump) believes that North Korea will ever give up their nuclear weapons. They're just playing the same game with Trump that they've played with all past administrations.
False. The special counsel continues to investigate Russian interference in the 2016 election and there’s no word yet whether Trump’s campaign colluded with the Russians. That's right, there's STILL no real evidence. Yet the wasteful witch hunt continues. Why would you expect the release of evidence by an ongoing investigation? The Mueller investigation has released no evidence thus far and isn't expected to until it concludes. The only information released by the investigation is that demanded by Congress and that that is part of indictments, which are necessarily public.
No one is saying Trump never says anything that is true, but if Trump has stated "TRUTHS that need to be said" then please tell us what they are. I've already mentioned one, "China is killing us on trade". I think there is widespread agreement on this - how is this a "TRUTH that needs to be said?" Where there is broad disagreement is that the solution is a trade war with China. Withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (a trade agreement between Pacific nations) was another big Trump mistake, since it handed China free reign to dominate Pacific trade agreements.
He has said many things that are true, yet offensive to most Washington insiders, including some in his own party. You still haven't provided a single example, not of "things that are true, yet offensive to most Washington insiders, including some in his own party," nor of "TRUTHS that need to be said."
He doesn't care, if they're true. I think we'd all be delighted if Trump began saying things that are true.
Don't you think that most anyone hearing a news report labeled "fake news" will believe they're being told the account is false? I think they could also believe, as I do, that they're being cleverly mis-lead, in such a way that the misleaders can't be officially called on it. Like the "Trump "crossed a lot of lines" caption that I referred to earlier. It happens a LOT. You manage to raise more questions while ignoring the question I asked: Won't most people hearing a news report labeled "fake news" believe they're being told the account is false? Your "Trump: 'crossed a lot of lines'" caption was already answered as a standard way of indicating in captions who said what. But I've found an ABC News video reporting that incident that doesn't back you up at all - the caption is completely different:
You don't seem able to find a true example of reporting bias.
We're talking about news. All news outlets have opinion pages or segments, including Fox News and Breitbart - that's not what we're discussing. And it's often really hard to distinguish between what is opinion and what is supposed to be unbiased fact. You're saying it's hard to tell between the news pages and the opinion pages? Really?
There is very little unbiased journalism anymore - there's no money in it. If there was so much biased journalism out there, then it should be easy for you to go find some. I mostly read (in approximate order from most read to least read) the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, the Los Angeles Times, Fox News, USA Today, Breitbart.
It's clear to most Christians that the DNC has bought and paid for all the mainstream media. What evidence makes this so clear to Christians?
And the RNC owns Fox. It is what it is. It's obvious that Fox News should be renamed Trump News, but that's not because they're owned by the Republican National Committee. That's ridiculous. Fox News is covering news in a way that appeals to their base of conservative viewers, which makes perfect sense since viewership is essential for revenue. It isn't because they're owned by the RNC. You've managed to get through an entire post without saying almost a single true thing. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
marc9000 writes: You sound proud that Christians are behaving politically in order to enforce their own religiously based beliefs of morality upon those outside their religion who believe differently.
Traditional morals and adherence to the Constitution aren't religiously based beliefs. I think most would agree that adherence to the Constitution is not a religiously based belief, but did you really mean to exclude traditional morals, too? Excluding morals from religious belief seems exceedingly odd.
They're behaving politically to resist socialism. This makes no sense. In a nation with separation of church and state, why would people in their role as Christians much care about the details of their government? The church encourages sharing, a principle at the foundation of socialism. We have social security because we care about our older people and believe that we together as a society should contribute to their wellbeing. We have Medicare because we believe our older people have a right to healthcare that is unaffordable for most on a fixed income, and that therefore we as a society should contribute to it. We have Medicaid because we believe that those unable to afford their own healthcare still have a right to it, and that we as a society should contribute to it. A healthy and more well off society is a better society. When it's every man for himself then we are all poorer.
And I gave you much more evidence than you responded to, providing his tweets of attacking the free press, The wonderful, innocent free press, yes. Do you know how conservative Joe Scarborough was as Florida congressman during the 90's? Do you know who he is now? Did MSNBC lock him in a Dr Who style Tardis, and re-program him, or did they just tell him to do as he's told, and then they'll determine if he'll keep his cushy anchor job? There are politicians who switch party every year. Is there something in particular you have against Joe Scarborough?
name calling and attacking individuals like Peter Strzok and Lisa Page. Do you know what Peter Strzok said and did? Sure I know what Strzok and Page said and did. What they said was to text messages back and forth that were comforting to them about a potential Trump presidency. What they did was their jobs.
I know it's okay with you, but try to understand why it's not okay with Christians. They know that most of Trump's assertiveness and lack of manners is reactionary. I guess you could include assertiveness as a Trump quality, but the Trump qualities more relevant here are antagonism, malevolence, hostility, vengefulness and crudity. None of it is reactionary. There is no one in either politics or the news media who exhibits these qualities in this combination or in this abundance and blatantness.
All the evidence suggests that Trump is striking out at everyone and everything else and that the media is merely reporting it. Trump is the source of hate, not the target of it. Striking out? Come on, you're using the wrong terminology. The ABC term is "lashing out". I have no objection to the term "lashing out," I'll be happy to use it. Trump is lashing out at everyone and everything, and the media is merely reporting it.
Every time Trump says much of anything, he's "lashing out". The angry news media, they never lash out. Maxine Waters? Never. They just have "outcries". Here's the best example of Trump lashing out at the media. Enjoy:
Out of time tonight. And I'm not seeing much more to inspire me to further clarify why Christians support Trump. When will you be offering this clarity about why Christians support Trump? After many words, so far there have been none.
It's a fact that they do however,... Yes, it most indeed is a fact that many Christians, especially evangelicals, support Trump, to their everlasting shame.
Oh but in the coming days I want to address the "lie" thing more. Message 2219 contains a whopper that 10,000 Trump lies couldn't offset. Message 2219 says:
NoNukes in Message 2219 writes: This isn't a position the Democratic party supports. Why is he lying about this? If this is an example of how Trump supporters think then it tells us they're just like him: they lie.
You are right. Having illegal's vote is not something Democrats espouse, but the idea that Democrats are looking for votes from illegals or from former illegals is a part of conspiracy theory pushed frequently by Republicans including at least one poster to these forums. I would not call it a lie; but it is ridiculous, paranoid, and inane. Fear of a brown planet. Seems fairly innocuous and obvious. Where is the "whopper?" --Percy
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1015 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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quote: But they've stopped now haven't they? Many Americans haven't noticed, because it's not on the news. The New York TimesThe Guardian NPR USA Today The Washington Post (mentioned in one of those opinion pieces that concern you so much, no less) PBS CNN (transcript from the TV broadcast - just to confirm this is being mentioned on US TV, as well.
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