Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 79 (8965 total)
64 online now:
dwise1 (1 member, 63 visitors)
Newest Member: javier martinez
Post Volume: Total: 873,240 Year: 4,988/23,288 Month: 109/1,784 Week: 207/353 Day: 16/32 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Book about the Anti-Trump Conspiracy
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 136 of 277 (836937)
07-24-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by PaulK
07-24-2018 1:02 AM


Introducing Another Book
After attempting to moderate this thread, I feel now as if it is better to do so while still being a participant. I first want to say to Faith that you are being quite honest for a change in explaining your views and everyone else is by and large being cooperative also...allow me to attempt to steer us back on topic by introducing another book to support my observations.
The Righteous Mind

Granted this is a book review rather than the actual book, but it addresses some of the questions which Percy raises as he challenges Faith.

Some quotes from the review:

quote:
In “The ­Righteous Mind,” Haidt seeks to enrich liberalism, and political discourse generally, with a deeper awareness of human nature. Like other psychologists who have ventured into political coaching, such as George Lakoff and Drew Westen, Haidt argues that people are fundamentally intuitive, not rational. If you want to persuade others, you have to appeal to their sentiments.
Note that Faith started this topic to express the alternative viewpoint as she sees it.
quote:
Politics isn’t just about ­manipulating people who disagree with you. It’s about learning from them.
Faiths hope is that people might learn by reading Liars Leakers and Liberals: The Case Against the Anti-Trump Conspiracy.. I will say that people in this thread...all of you....might learn about Faith's reasoning for creating this thread by reading The Righteous Mind or at least as I did browse the review! So many books...so little time! A few more quotes from the review:

quote:
To the question many people ask about politics — Why doesn’t the other side listen to reason? — Haidt replies: We were never designed to listen to reason. When you ask people moral questions, time their responses and scan their brains, their answers and brain activation patterns indicate that they reach conclusions quickly and produce reasons later only to justify what they’ve decided.
Can we not all agree that we all reach conclusions rather quickly but for different reasons?

quote:
The problem isn’t that people don’t reason. They do reason. But their arguments aim to support their conclusions, not yours. Reason doesn’t work like a judge or teacher, impartially weighing evidence or guiding us to wisdom. It works more like a lawyer or press secretary, justifying our acts and judgments to others.

[moderator] Keep respecting each other and attempt to find common ground. Ive given up trying to force the topic to comment only on the book...taming EvC is as hard as taming a wild stallion![/moderator]


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 07-24-2018 1:02 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19654
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 137 of 277 (836938)
07-24-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
07-24-2018 12:23 PM


Re: What is the evidence to support the assertions made in the second paragraph.
ringo writes:

When he compares a black person to a monkey,...

I couldn't find where Trump has done this, but here's stuff from Donald Trump’s Racism: The Definitive List that seems supported by evidence (i.e., not hearsay) and that is specific to blacks (i.e., not Mexicans or Muslims or Haitians or Puerto Ricans or Jews, who he has also attacked):

Here's a couple more from other sources:

  • Referred to African nations as shithole countries.

  • Cheered Rosanne Barr for comparing a former Obama aide to an ape.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 07-24-2018 12:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 07-24-2018 1:23 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 139 by Chiroptera, posted 07-24-2018 4:32 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 138 of 277 (836940)
07-24-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Percy
07-24-2018 1:19 PM


Re: What is the evidence to support the assertions made in the second paragraph.
Percy writes:

I couldn't find where Trump has done this....


Yeah, sorry, I was thinking of Roseanne Barr.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 1:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6909
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 139 of 277 (836948)
07-24-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Percy
07-24-2018 1:19 PM


Trump the racist
Don't forget to include Trump's claim that Mexican immigrants are predominantly crinimals.


What do you despise? By this are you truly known. -- Frank Herbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Percy, posted 07-24-2018 1:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19654
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 140 of 277 (836976)
07-25-2018 9:59 AM


Trump Says Not To Believe What You See or Read
In a speech to the VFW yesterday Trump, after speaking out against criticism of his policies, said not to believe what you see or read (long speech, but I've queued this YouTube video up to the exact right spot):

Apparently we should only believe lying, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, dictator loving Trump. This comment is on-topic since it undoubtedly includes criticisms Pirro believes unfair and unprecedented but that can be easily supported.

Trump seems to be getting used to using a teleprompter, though I suspect he adlibs quite a bit.

If you want to hear Trump lying about the Democratic position on immigration and crime, advance forward to 39:51 where he asserts that Democrats want open borders and crime.

--Percy


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 141 of 277 (836978)
07-25-2018 10:28 AM


Off Topic or nah?
I might comment that we are getting off topic. The topic isnt Trump. It is Liars Leakers and Liberals: The Case Against the Anti-Trump Conspiracy.. Perhaps these types of comments are better expressed in the Trump presidential thread. Comments?
Percy writes:

This comment is on-topic since it undoubtedly includes criticisms Pirro believes unfair and unprecedented but that can be easily supported.


If so, wouldn't it be better to focus on Pirros comments themselves?
ringo writes:

Yeah, sorry, I was thinking of Roseanne Barr.

Roseanne Barr is definitely off-topic, not to mention off the wall!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Percy, posted 07-25-2018 12:33 PM Phat has responded
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 12:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 144 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 12:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19654
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 142 of 277 (836993)
07-25-2018 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
07-25-2018 10:28 AM


Re: Off Topic or nah?
Phat writes:

I might comment that we are getting off topic. The topic isn't Trump. It is Liars Leakers and Liberals: The Case Against the Anti-Trump Conspiracy..

You say the topic isn't Trump but about a book making the case against the anti-Trump conspiracy. A discussion about this book cannot help but include Trump. It must also include those entities the book charges as responsible for the conspiracy, namely the news media and the Democrats.

Percy writes:

This comment is on-topic since it undoubtedly includes criticisms Pirro believes unfair and unprecedented but that can be easily supported.


If so, wouldn't it be better to focus on Pirro's comments themselves?

We only have access to chapter one and the first two sections of chapter two. Pirro provides no specific examples of what she claims is happening, so we are forced to fill in the blanks with examples ourselves, since Faith (the only one with a copy of the book) is refusing to provide anything specific herself, in fact, seems to glory in her ignorance of the news that is the supposed expression of the conspiracy.

The desire Faith actually expressed in her opening post was to state her beliefs without challenge. She seems to feel that the mere fact of challenging her beliefs is a sign of disrespect. She is in spirit, like her hero, an autocrat.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 10:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 4:16 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 143 of 277 (836997)
07-25-2018 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
07-25-2018 10:28 AM


Re: Off Topic or nah?
Phat writes:

The topic isnt Trump.


If the book was The Conspiracy to Claim That Elephants Are Big, wouldn't it be reasonable to show that elephants are, in fact, big? If elephants are in fact big, doesn't that rather negate the premise of tbe book? Isn't that actually a pretty important point in discussing the book?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 10:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32366
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 144 of 277 (836999)
07-25-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
07-25-2018 10:28 AM


Re: Off Topic or nah?
If the topic is about The Case Against the Anti-Trump Conspiracy might it not be wise to first provide the evidence there is some anti-Trump conspiracy?

Wouldn't the way to do that be by providing actual evidence of an anti-Trump conspiracy?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 10:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 145 of 277 (837008)
07-25-2018 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Percy
07-25-2018 12:33 PM


Re: Off Topic or nah?
Percy writes:

You say the topic isn't Trump but about a book making the case against the anti-Trump conspiracy. A discussion about this book cannot help but include Trump. It must also include those entities the book charges as responsible for the conspiracy, namely the news media and the Democrats.

Point taken, gentlemen. This gets me back to Jonathan Haight. He warns us of what will happen if the Left and the Right don't get along!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Percy, posted 07-25-2018 12:33 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8262
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 146 of 277 (837021)
07-25-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:48 AM


Re: Focus On The Book
Faith writes:

No I don't follow the news. I see headlines on the internet, sometimes I read part of the story. Sometimes I hear it on the car radio when I'm being driven somewhere. I get the basic gist of some things. and I see some of what gets written on the Trump Bashing Thread which makes me sick. I cannot stomach what the Left is doing to him and to the nation, I really can't. I have to shut it out or it will kill me.

Do you think that Trump should never be criticized, no matter what he does?

After a while, the position you are taking seems really scary. It seems authoritarian. You consider it a conspiracy when the press does its job. If you look at the history of authoritarianism in the 20th and 21st century, the first thing a dictator does is go after the press, and silence them. Dictators can't stand be criticized, and the people who support these dictators also can't stand it.

This is the scary stuff that Pirro seems to be pushing, the idea that the Dear Leader can not be questioned. What the Dear Leader says is true, and no one should ever say otherwise. Perhaps this is why Trump likes dictators so much, because he is a bit jealous of the power they hold.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 5:24 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35122
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 147 of 277 (837024)
07-25-2018 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Taq
07-25-2018 5:09 PM


Re: Focus On The Book
My position is that there IS a conspiracy to attack Trump against all the rules of journalism and common decency because the majority of journalists are leftist. The "criticism" is so far out of bounds it's ridiculous to ask if I don't want him to be criticized at all: he's criticized incessantly, constantly, in such a way that it is impossibly to ignore how much the press hates ME and all his supporters, but they don't seem to care about that or about anything except imposing their leftist views on the nation. I think it was Pew Research that showed that Trump is getting at least twice the amount of negative press of any other President ever or something like that, even conservative Presidents. Insisting that this is merely what Trump deserves is just leftist blindness.

This idea that we're pushing the idea that Trump "cannot be questioned" is beyond absurd in this political atmosphere. He isn't being "questioned" he's being subjected to slander, fake news, character assassination, taking his words out of context, refusing to give him the slightest benefit of the doubt, spinning everything he says to bring him under the black cloud of Political Correctness. It is so obvious to any conservative who has any contact whatever with the news, what's amazing is that nobody on the left can see it at all.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Taq, posted 07-25-2018 5:09 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 07-25-2018 5:28 PM Faith has responded
 Message 158 by Percy, posted 07-25-2018 6:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8262
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 148 of 277 (837025)
07-25-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Faith
07-25-2018 5:24 PM


Re: Focus On The Book
Faith writes:

My position is that there IS a conspiracy to attack Trump against all the rules of journalism and common decency because the majority of journalists are leftist. The "criticism" is so far out of bounds it's ridiculous to ask if I don't want him to be criticized at all: he's criticized incessantly, constantly, in such a way that it is impossibly to itnore how much the press hates ME and all his supporters, but they don't seem to care about that or about anything except imposing their leftist views on the nation.

What makes the criticisms out of bounds? Can you give an example?

When you appoint your kids to political jobs they are open to the same criticism as any other politician. In the past, the press mostly left family alone because they weren't politicians, they were just citizens. Not so with the Trumps. In fact, most presidents were smart enough to avoid nepotism. Not Trump.

This idea that we're pushing the idea that Trump "cannot be questioned" is beyond absurd in this political atmosphere. He isn't being "questioned" he's being subjected to slander, fake news, character assassination, taking his words out of context, refusing to give him the slightest benefit of the doubt, spinning everything he says to bring him under the black cloud of Political Correctness. It is so obvious to any conservative who has any contact whatever with the news, what's amazing is that nobody on the left can see it at all.

That's clearly not true. The accusations made against Trump are backed by facts. It isn't fake news. It is real news.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 5:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 5:31 PM Taq has responded
 Message 153 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 5:44 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35122
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 149 of 277 (837028)
07-25-2018 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
07-25-2018 5:28 PM


Re: Focus On The Book
I can't prove it because anything I point out gets rationalized away as if it's just normal criticism. If you can't SEE that everywhere you turn there is NOTHING BUT attacks on everything from big issues to trivia I'm not going to be able to convince you. The work it would take to exd
plain every little thing that's been spun out of context to mean something negative about Trump would take me hours. All I can do is say conservatives see it, why don't you?

You don't seem to understand that FACTS can be spun, that they can be taken out of context, that there have been fake news facts already that have been shown to have been invented. Marc9000 has described this to some extent. Headlines are just about always skewed to give some negative impression that is unnecessary. Over and over some minor personality is reported to have said something negative about Trump as if that person's opinion matters, totally unnecessary and tendentious but probably influential with a lot of people. ANYTHING negative seems to be the journalistic standard these days.

Sometimes I wish I could devote my life to trying to prove these things but I've got too many other things to devote my life to and I've learned by sad experience that no matter how much work I put into my arguments nobody here accepts any of it anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 07-25-2018 5:28 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Taq, posted 07-25-2018 5:35 PM Faith has responded
 Message 159 by Percy, posted 07-25-2018 6:25 PM Faith has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8262
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 150 of 277 (837030)
07-25-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
07-25-2018 5:31 PM


Re: Focus On The Book
Faith writes:

I can't prove it because anything I point out gets rationalized away as if it's just normal criticism. If you can't SEE that everywhere you turn there is NOTHING BUT attacks on everything from big issues to trivia I'm not going to be able to convince you.

It never occurred to you that there is a lot of criticism because Trump deserves it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 5:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 5:39 PM Taq has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020