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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 91 of 441 (837194)
07-28-2018 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
07-28-2018 12:44 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
We have to argue that it is a human life because it is hidden from view and that is the only reason. It is easy to rationalize it away because of that.
I think the mere fact that we know if we don't interfere it will keep growintg into a recognizable human being is enough of a reason to know it's a human life from conception, but now we also know that it is genetically human from conception, and we can now also see on ultrasound that it is clearly human at twelve weeks, and that knowledge makes us morally responsible. I think Tangle was doing a good job on this point, I wish he'd come back and continue it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 12:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 1:08 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 441 (837196)
07-28-2018 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:58 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
We have to argue that it is a human life because it is hidden from view and that is the only reason.
The point is that you're not thinking of it as a human life. That's just rhetoric. You're actually think of it as second class.
It's like saying something is "valuable" but not being willing to pay for it.
I'll remind you again that I am not in favour of abortion. But you have to understand the implications of your own position before you can go declaring to everybody else what is "moral".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 441 (837197)
07-28-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
07-28-2018 1:08 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
So what if we think of it as "second class?" It's still a human life even if we give it a lower legal status. And emotionally it only depends onw ether it is wanted or not how highly it is valued, which is merely a subjective evaluation. Objectively it is a human life by all the standards I've been talking bout.
And by the way it was Tangle who said it is a moral issue. But it's a good point, it is a moral issue and the reason it is a moral issue is that it is a human life. It would really help if you'd read through the last few dozen posts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 1:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 1:23 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 94 of 441 (837198)
07-28-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
07-28-2018 1:10 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
So what if we think of it as "second class?" It's still a human life even if we give it a lower legal status.
Ever hear of equality? Should we go back to treating women as second class? Black people? People who follow the "wrong" religion? Maybe we should measure humanity on a scale of 1 to 10.
We've been trying to improve our idea of equality (except for the Trump supporters who are already perfect). Now you want to go backward?
Faith writes:
And by the way it was Tangle who said it is a moral issue.
Moral issues are muddy. You're best off keeping your own morality in your own pants.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 1:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 8:56 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 441 (837199)
07-28-2018 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:28 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
I am not proposing going back to the way things used to be, but what we've been doing since then is totally unnecessary and involves lies and the casual killing of human life, and surely we are capable of coming up with better solutions now.
Again, you are just posting the Cult dogma, totally unsupported propaganda.
The reality is that so far no one has offered a model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that is evidence and reality based and superior to the current one.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 96 of 441 (837207)
07-28-2018 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
07-26-2018 5:39 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
100% of people die but we still dislike murder.
It’s not relevant what nature does is it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 07-26-2018 5:39 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 97 of 441 (837208)
07-28-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
07-27-2018 2:37 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Percy writes:
My lack of answers leaves me unarmed for a persu
asive effort.
We can agree that there are no answers- this is not mathematics. It’s life. Given that, what do you feel?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 07-27-2018 2:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 11:08 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 118 by Stile, posted 07-30-2018 9:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 441 (837227)
07-28-2018 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
07-28-2018 1:23 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Oh for pete's sake. I thought YOU were pointing out that the unborn child does not have equal legal status as a human being, I haven't said anything about that side of things because I'm only interested at this point in arguing that it is in fact a human life, as against all those rationalizations that turn it into a bit of tissue or a process and whatnot. As for its legal status I just thought you were reiterating that it isn't treated in the Bible as a fullfledged human being, or in our laws either. I'm not arguing about that side of things at ALL, so all your accusations about my somehow now objecting to equality are just ridiculous and a perfect example of leftist character assassination pasted on me from out of the blue, all set up by you, not me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 07-28-2018 1:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 2:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 99 of 441 (837243)
07-29-2018 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
07-28-2018 10:21 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
It isn't a potential human life until conception.
.
Why isn't a sperm or an egg potential human life?
Because all by itself it isn't going to grow up to be a baby.
Neither will a fertilized egg grow up "all by itself" to be a baby. It needs a uterus, a placenta, a living female host, and nothing to go wrong, such as lack of implantation, implantation in the wrong place, birth defects, health problems, etc.
At conception all the ingredients are there to form a human being,...
All the ingredients were there just prior to conception, too.
A sperm or egg alone isn't going to form a human being.
A fertilized egg alone isn't going to form a human being, either.
...so it is morally wrong to terminate it at any time from conception to birth.
Why is it morally wrong?
Because from conception on it is a developing human being, inevitably a human being, if nothing interferes.
Is a fetus a human being before life has been breathed into it? Why the lack of concern for what you're considering human life during the very early stages after conception when so many things can go wrong? If you truly felt they were as much human beings as a born baby then why are there no efforts to begin research programs to save these human beings?
Is it equally morally wrong to terminate at any point after conception, or is there a scale of increasing morally wrong from conception to birth?
As Tangle pointed out, subjectively we regard it as morally worse the further it has developed. But objectively it's already a human being from conception, just in an early stage of development. It engages our feelings and our conscience the farther along it is, but again that is a subjective standard of judgment.
For anyone who truly believes there's a step function at conception between non-life and human life, then while there is most certainly a developmental progression after conception, how could there be any progression toward humanity. That step, according to you, has already happened. And earlier you added the requirement that human life requires nothing else but conception to eventually become a baby, but that's untrue - much else is required.
Once it's underway and developing it is a potential human life so that if we kill it we know we are killing a potential human being and we know at some level this is wrong.
At what level do we know it is wrong,
I meant at some level of our consciousness we know it is wrong to kill what we know is a developing human being.
Why does declaring that this is true of everyone make sense to you?
and why? Is "kill" the right term, or is it really just interrupting a process?
If it is a human being at different stages of development, and not something else at any of those stages but always a human being, with all the genetic stuff of a human being, and growing inexorably moment by moment, then it is alive so killing is the right word.
But have you shown that it a human being at all stages of development after conception, or is that just something you'd like to declare true while dispensing with any arguments for how it is true.
Calling a living human embryo or fetus a "process" is a sophistry intended to create emotional distance and rationalize killing it without moral implications.
But turning this around, calling a fetus a human being is a sophistry intended to create emotional closeness and rationalizing it as human life with all the attendant moral implications.
I would prefer to call it simply a human being at different stages of life because the term "potential" distances us from its inherent humanness. All the concern to label each stage separately is just a way to obscure the fact that it is a human being at some stage or other of life.
Well, yes, of course, you'd like to adjust your terminology and rhetoric toward maximum emotional impact.
Because you are adjusting yours to turn a living human being into a "process" or other unhuman thing so you don't have to think of it in moral terms.
You are choosing your terms to maximize emotional impact and put it in a moral context instead of looking at the issue objectively.
I would argue against abortion myself except where the mother's life is threatened, and as Tangle pointed out, it would still be a "harm" even for that reason.
Given the multiplicity of contexts across which Tangle is applying the word "harm," is that really the right term?
He can correct me but that's how I understood him to be using the term: abortion under any circumstances is a harm. I believe he's been using it in the sense of the Hippocratic oath, "Do no harm" harm in the Hippocratic view including administering abortifacients.
But the Hippocratic oath is about treating people. Is a fetus a person from conception to birth?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 10:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 07-29-2018 11:30 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 100 of 441 (837244)
07-29-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:10 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
What is needed is for Planned Parenthood to stop lying to women about what pregnancy really is,...
Here is Planned Parenthood's page on pregnancy. Click on Learn More for a great deal of detail. Please point out the lies.
...allow them to understand that it really is a living child,...
But is it a living child?
...let them see pictures of just how human it is at a very early stage,...
The Planned Parenthood site uses diagrams instead of images, but including images sounds fair.
...and offer them help to get through the pregnancy,...
That's a large part of what they do.
...help either for adoption or to keep it,...
Planned Parenthood also covers the adoption choice. Here is the Planned Parenthood Page on Adoptions.
Phasing out abortion in favor of emphasizing this kind of help would be a place to start.
Why should they phase out abortion? So woman can return to unsanitary back rooms manned by butchers?
And stop selling dead baby parts too.
You're a victim of propaganda.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 101 of 441 (837245)
07-29-2018 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:28 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
I am not proposing going back to the way things used to be,...
Going back to "the way things use to be" is precisely what you're proposing. Once abortions are unobtainable legally, what choice is there but back-room abortions?
...but what we've been doing since then is totally unnecessary and involves lies and the casual killing of human life, and surely we are capable of coming up with better solutions now.
Such as? Can I assume your "better solutions" don't include abortion?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-29-2018 11:48 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 102 of 441 (837246)
07-29-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
07-28-2018 12:32 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Too much of these discussions are merely semantic, manipulating words to deny that it is a human life that is being taken in abortion.
Too much of these discussions are merely semantic, manipulating words to deny the ambiguity of when human life begins.
I can avoid terms like "murder" if it doesn't further the argument, but we're still talking about taking a human life from conception to birth and that is still a moral problem for most of us whether we want to admit it or not.
Where you see conclusions I see unanswerable questions. Abortion is a personal decision.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-28-2018 12:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 103 of 441 (837247)
07-29-2018 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tangle
07-28-2018 2:44 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Tangle writes:
Percy writes:
My lack of answers leaves me unarmed for a persuasive effort.
We can agree that there are no answers- this is not mathematics. It’s life.
All cells are life no matter what purpose they serve.
Given that, what do you feel?
I feel like there are a lot of unanswerable questions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 07-28-2018 2:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 07-29-2018 5:13 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 104 of 441 (837248)
07-29-2018 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Percy
07-29-2018 10:39 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Neither will a fertilized egg grow up "all by itself" to be a baby. It needs a uterus, a placenta, a living female host, and nothing to go wrong, such as lack of implantation, implantation in the wrong place, birth defects, health problems, etc.
Which is why I often qualify it with a phrase along the lines of "if it's healthy" or "under the right circumstances." But it is also true for the born baby or the toddler or the five-year old, that they could not live by themselves without the care of adults. Nor could many elderly live on their own either.
All the ingredients were there just prior to conception, too.
Separately the ingredients won't turn into a baby, conception is needed for that.
Is a fetus a human being before life has been breathed into it?
That's why Tangle was using the term "potential" human life. But if you want to make taking its first breath your criterion, then it is not a human being until it is born, and if you want to make that the line you'd draw before which it's OK to kill it you are accepting the killing of a fully formed baby.
Why the lack of concern for what you're considering human life during the very early stages after conception when so many things can go wrong? If you truly felt they were as much human beings as a born baby then why are there no efforts to begin research programs to save these human beings?
Well but there is concern for that stage too, since I've said I think it is morally wrong to kill it that early as well as later because it is also a stage of human growth. But I'm not arguing all the stages are equal since I agree with Tangle that our emotional and moral feelings grow as the fetus grows, I'm just saying there's no stage at which it is right to kill it.
I meant at some level of our consciousness we know it is wrong to kill what we know is a developing human being.
Why does declaring that this is true of everyone make sense to you?
I think we all know this unconsciously at least, because it's a matter of common knowledge, but of course some would be more sensitive to the knowledge than others. I've mentioned the fact that many women get depressed over an abortion which I think reflects this knowledge, and my own dream told me I knew it too although I thought it was "just a piece of tissue" before. But if you want to point out that many women have no feeling about it at all, I'll accept that. I'll also go on to say that objectively it IS s developing human being no matter what anyone feels about it.
It's the OBJECTIVE fact that I want to emphasize, that it is NOT a mere "process" or a "piece of tissue" at any stage after conception.
Hippocrates considered abortion to be a "harm," that's all I know about his views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 10:39 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 07-30-2018 6:16 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 441 (837250)
07-29-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Percy
07-29-2018 11:01 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Although I think abortion is killing a human life, I don't want to criminalize it, I want to educate people to see it as killing a human life and phase it out rather than making it a crime and forbidding it. The biggest problem I see is that it continues to be rationalized away as just s "process" or a nonliving "piece of tissue" or some such, and that an organization like Planned Parenthood fights the attempts by Pro-Life advocates to make the pregnant woman aware of it as a developing human being. It is the propaganda that says it is not a living human being that feeds the abortion industry, so if that is countered I think we'd have a lot fewer abortions, especially if services to help women in all their needs through a pregnancy was the main offering to pregnant women instead of abortion.
Although I oppose abortion for all the reasons I've been giving, if you really want to offer a CHOICE you have to make it plain that the choice involves ending a human life even while continuing to offer abortion as a choice. There are certainly problems with this as a solution too but there are problems with all possible solutions and this is the one at the moment that I'd propose. It puts the decision in the hands of the woman but after arming her with facts that have previously been kept from her by the abortion industry. It is easy to show that a developing fetus is truly human, we have the means to show that now. Let her become aware of the truth about that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Percy, posted 07-29-2018 11:01 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 9:31 AM Faith has replied

  
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