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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 2281 of 4573 (837406)
07-31-2018 6:53 PM


DHS Chief Nielsen Gets it Both Right and Wrong
Department of Homeland Security chief Kirstjen Nielsen today commented about 2016 election meddling at the DHS National Cybersecurity Summit: "Let me be clear: Our intelligence community had it right. It was the Russians."
This is good to hear after all of Trump's recently waffling (I think his last flip-flop had him saying it wasn't the Russians), but later Nielsen said, "No actual votes were changed in 2016."
That's absurd. A guy was actually convinced that Hillary Clinton was running a child sex ring out of a pizza shop by fake news on social media, to such an extent that he got his gun and shot up the place. Convincing people to vote a certain way has got to be much easier. Of course votes were changed.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 2282 of 4573 (837407)
07-31-2018 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2281 by Percy
07-31-2018 6:53 PM


Re: DHS Chief Nielsen Gets it Both Right and Wrong
Percy writes:
Of course votes were changed.
You seem to totally misunderstand reality. Changing votes BEFORE they are cast is fine. It's only a problem when you change votes after they are cast.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2281 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 6:53 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2283 of 4573 (837420)
08-01-2018 8:27 AM


Trump Fact Checker Update
The Washington Post has updated their Trump Fact Checker to July 31, 2018 (it had been May 31, 2018): In 558 days, President Trump has made 4,229 false or misleading claims. Here's the graph of accumulated false and misleading statements:
At their webpage the graph can also display in daily and monthly formats.
Most repeated claim? In it's most recent form, here it is:
quote:
Collusion is not a crime, but that doesn’t matter because there was No Collusion (except by Crooked Hillary and the Democrats)!
Collusion won't be the legal term used in any indictments, but collusion (a sort of catchall term) is definitely a crime.
Needless to say, much evidence has emerged of contacts between the Trump campaign and Russia, and there's been no evidence of any contact between the Clinton campaign and Russia.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2284 of 4573 (837429)
08-01-2018 11:00 AM


Rich People Shocked as Their Killer Robots Turn on their Creators
It appears that Charles Koch and Donald Trump don't like each other.
I'm reminded of the tag line from the movie Aliens vs Predator: No matter who wins, we all lose.


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 2285 of 4573 (837450)
08-01-2018 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2283 by Percy
08-01-2018 8:27 AM


Re: Trump Fact Checker Update
Percy writes:
Collusion won't be the legal term used in any indictments, but collusion (a sort of catchall term) is definitely a crime.
Trump might as well say that driving the getaway car for a bank robbery is not a crime because driving is not a crime.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2286 of 4573 (837452)
08-01-2018 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2284 by Chiroptera
08-01-2018 11:00 AM


Re: Rich People Shocked as Their Killer Robots Turn on their Creators
The Koch brothers each have a net worth over $50 billion dollars. il Donald MAYBE $3 billion. il Donald says the Koch Brothers are a joke.
Maybe a HUGE joke?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 2287 of 4573 (837453)
08-01-2018 5:36 PM


Invisible planes and ID requirements for buying milk
In case you weren't already worried about the mental capacity of the person leading the US . . .
Apparently, Trump thinks the F-35 fighter jet is literally invisible.
Trump seems to think F-35 is literally invisible in flight | Ars Technica
Trump also thinks that you need an ID to buy groceries:
Trump claims you need ID to buy groceries. You do not. | CNN Politics

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 2288 of 4573 (837454)
08-01-2018 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2286 by jar
08-01-2018 5:22 PM


Re: Rich People Shocked as Their Killer Robots Turn on their Creators
jar writes:
The Koch brothers each have a net worth over $50 billion dollars. il Donald MAYBE $3 billion.
I tried looking into the "MAYBE $3 billion" part. The $3 billion figure is at the low end of various independent estimates, though that's what Forbes estimates. Also according to Forbes Trump has claimed figures like $8.7 billion and more than $10 billion, but because Trump lies about most everything we know any estimate he provides can't be trusted and should be ignored. This Wikipedia article about The Trump Organization comments on the problems of estimating its value:
quote:
Since the financial statements of the Trump Organization's holdings are private, as are Donald Trump's personal tax returns, there exist a wide range of estimates of the Trump Organization's true value. Donald Trump has been accused on several occasions of deliberately inflating the valuation of Trump Organization properties through the aggressive lobbying of the media, in particular the authors of the annual Forbes 400 list, in order to bolster his perceived net worth among the public over several decades. He has released little definitive financial documentation to the public to confirm his valuation claims.
The Trump properties are undoubtedly worth a great deal, but Trump also has mortgages. Mortgages are a matter of public record since they result in liens being publicly recorded on properties, so any independent estimates of his wealth would take into account both his assets and his mortgage liabilities, and so one would think these independent estimates would be pretty close to the mark.
But the ability of the rich to hide information and to just get away with stuff means there is much not publicly known about the Trump empire, so I don't trust the independent estimates of Trump's net worth. Trump's obsequiousness before anything Russian is more than suspicious, it's a blaring alarm. There must be a reason. My best guess (and I think the simplest) is that he owes billions to Russian oligarchs.
It's impossible to know Trump's actual net worth, but I'm thinking a figure less than zero, and that it will all come crashing down once he's out of office and the lawsuits start piling up.
AbE: I just came across a 2016 Vanity Fair article that asks if Donald Trump is really a billionaire, recounting some things we already knew but probably no longer recall since this was a couple years ago:
quote:
The fact that he’s sold several of his assetsincluding up to $7 million in fund assets and $9 million in individual securitiesto cover his campaign debt suggests that he probably doesn’t have enough cash on hand to easily cover the costs of his campaign outright. That’s not something one would expect from a man who claims he is worth in excess of TEN BILLION DOLLARS (the capitalization is Trump’s). In addition, the real estate mogul has added over $50 million in debt to his ledger, Politico reports, putting his total debt somewhere between $315 million and $500 million, and possibly more.
If he is swimming in so much cash for all his holdings, why is he selling this stuff to raise cash? one anonymous, fellow elite asked Politico, apparently rhetorically. You would see that he doesn’t have the money that he claims to have and he’s not paying much of anything in taxes, a hedge-fund manager, also anonymous to avoid Trump’s wrath, told the news outlet.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2289 of 4573 (837456)
08-01-2018 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2288 by Percy
08-01-2018 7:55 PM


Does the Emoluments Clause Have a Poverty Exception?
Another case that is proceeding against the President is the one alleging that he's in violation of the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution.
This and any trial involving Cohen will directly involve Trump's finances, which means that his records may be subpoenaed. And although Manafort's trial doesn't bear directly on Trump, it will expose the seedy underbelly of the types of financial shenanigans that Trump's circle engages in.
Time Magazine suggests that it's the potential exposure of his finances that has Trump all worked up over this "witch hunt".


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2290 of 4573 (837457)
08-01-2018 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2289 by Chiroptera
08-01-2018 8:46 PM


Re: Does the Emoluments Clause Have a Poverty Exception?
Chiroptera writes:
Time Magazine suggests that it's the potential exposure of his finances that has Trump all worked up over this "witch hunt".
Yup.
Follow the money. Who holds the notes; who made the loans; what is getting laundered.
It's not public opinion Trump fears, or even criminal charges, it is threats to assets.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1492
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 2291 of 4573 (837458)
08-01-2018 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2277 by NoNukes
07-30-2018 5:44 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
marc9000 writes:
I heard somewhere that sanctuary cities tend to work pretty hard to get them registered.
You heard? Got a shred of evidence?
Non-citizens will start voting soon in San Francisco – Orange County Register
quote:
In San Francisco, there will be safeguards preventing non-citizens from doing what Trump strongly opposes: They won’t be allowed to vote legally in elections for anything but school officials. To ensure that doesn’t happen, ballots going to non-citizens will not list any federal, state or other local offices. And yet, there are few safeguards to prevent non-citizens from registering as regular voters.
and
quote:
Here’s what the California secretary of state’s website says about identification needed to register: The voter registration application asks for your driver license or California identification card number, or you can use the last four numbers on your Social Security card. If you do not have a driver license, California identification card or Social Security card, you may leave that space blank. Your county elections official will assign a number to you that will be used to identify you as a voter.
quote:
In short, no one really needs to prove citizenship to vote for any office, in San Francisco or anywhere else in California.
In short, I hope every leftist keeps claiming that there is no desire for illegals to vote, and that the mainstream media isn't biased. And we'll see how the elections go this November.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2277 by NoNukes, posted 07-30-2018 5:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 2295 by Percy, posted 08-02-2018 8:51 AM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 2304 by Taq, posted 08-02-2018 3:52 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 2305 by ringo, posted 08-02-2018 4:17 PM marc9000 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2292 of 4573 (837459)
08-01-2018 10:00 PM


About the value-added of immigrants
For the third time in four years the US has won the International Mathematical Olympiad in which teams of high schoolers from countries around the world compete. Many of the team members are second and third generation immigrants.
Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 2352 by marc9000, posted 08-05-2018 4:50 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 2293 of 4573 (837460)
08-02-2018 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2291 by marc9000
08-01-2018 9:14 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
Your claim is that lefties are working hard to get illegals to vote. Let's see if you did anything to address that claim.
1. You gave a quote citing that there were few safeguards in place to keep illegals from voting in San Francisco. Are there any particular safeguards in place in North Carolina, for example? Is this really on point anyway?
You quote something saying that someone could vote illegally because it is not required that you show a social security card or state id to register. Let's see if the state does check for illegal immigrants. But before I do this, again, at best you are providing evidence of slackness.
First of all, all you are citing is the requirement for the assigned number and not the documents that are required to prove residency and citizenship. Your application is reviewed by the County Elections Office.
Secondly, if you are a new voter and you register without showing a driver's license or social security number, then you will be required to provide identification at the time of voting.
So both your poorly researched claims and purported evidence are easily seen to be incorrect.
Here are the actual requirements to vote:
quote:
A United States citizen and a resident of California,
18 years old or older on Election Day,
Not currently in state or federal prison or on parole for the conviction of a felony (for more information on the rights of people who have been incarcerated, please see the Secretary of State's Voting Rights: Persons with a Criminal History), and
Not currently found mentally incompetent to vote by a court (for more information, please see Voting Rights: Persons Subject to Conservatorship).
Where is the effort to allow illegals to vote marc9000?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 2294 of 4573 (837461)
08-02-2018 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2293 by NoNukes
08-02-2018 1:26 AM


on the illegal aliens voting misrepresentations by Trump & Co.
According to US Code (not just San Fransisco or California) no illegal aliens are allowed to vote in Federal Elections. Period.
BUT if you look at the US Code Title 18 611 non-citizens are allowed to vote on certain local issues like the example Marc posted where there is a movement to allow undocumented immigrants to vote for school board members.
US Code Title 18 611 was last modified in 2000.
quote:
(a) It shall be unlawful for any alien to vote in any election held solely or in part for the purpose of electing a candidate for the office of President, Vice President, Presidential elector, Member of the Senate, Member of the House of Representatives, Delegate from the District of Columbia, or Resident Commissioner, unless
(1) the election is held partly for some other purpose;
(2) aliens are authorized to vote for such other purpose under a State constitution or statute or a local ordinance; and
(3) voting for such other purpose is conducted independently of voting for a candidate for such Federal offices, in such a manner that an alien has the opportunity to vote for such other purpose, but not an opportunity to vote for a candidate for any one or more of such Federal offices.
(b) Any person who violates this section shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
(c) Subsection (a) does not apply to an alien if
(1) each natural parent of the alien (or, in the case of an adopted alien, each adoptive parent of the alien) is or was a citizen (whether by birth or naturalization);
(2) the alien permanently resided in the United States prior to attaining the age of 16; and
(3) the alien reasonably believed at the time of voting in violation of such subsection that he or she was a citizen of the United States.

Marc's rant is just another example of the ignorance and dishonesty of il Donald as well as his cult.
AbE: Just another data point. The Republicans held the majority in both House & Senate in 2000 when US Code Title 18 611 was last modified, not the Democrats.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Edited by jar, : see AbE

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2295 of 4573 (837462)
08-02-2018 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2291 by marc9000
08-01-2018 9:14 PM


Re: .50 Cal Jesus Kills for your Sins
I couldn't be sure whether your message reflected any confusion between legal non-citizen residents and illegal residents, so I'll be perfectly clear about who can legally vote and who can't in federal elections:
  • Allowed to vote: Birth or Naturalized Citizens
  • Can't vote: Everyone else, including visa waived people, visa holders, asylum seekers, legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, anyone under 18
In case it helps, here are some of the categories of non-citizens who may be present in the country, none of whom can legally vote:
  • Tourist/Business visitor in visa waiver program (only certain countries)
  • Tourist visa holders
  • Foreign visa holders (legal immigrants, generally a citizen or employer must sponsor)
  • Asylum seekers
  • Non-visa holders (illegal immigrants)
When I registered to vote in my town around 30 years ago, there was no citizenship check, just a residency check. Because I'm not affiliated with either party, in order to vote in a Republican or Democratic primary I have to register as one or the other, then after the election reregister back as an independent. I used to do this up until maybe 10 years ago, but it was so annoying to have to register twice that I stopped voting in primaries. But I was never asked for proof of citizenship.
Most states do not require proof of citizenship to register to vote. Some have tried to institute it but have had their laws struck down by the courts. For example, Kansas had a citizenship requirement until recently, but a judge struck it down in June, ruling that the National Voter Registration Act requires that states make it convenient to register, which means only having to swear you're a U.S. citizen under penalty of perjury.
For most people proof of citizenship is a birth certificate or a passport. I didn't see any mention of the newly available Enhanced Driver's License. Here's a page listing the federally defined evidence of citizenship. The part I found most interesting is what you have to do if there is no record of your birth. You must obtain a Letter of No Record. I wonder who is most likely to lack a record of birth, the rich or the poor?
There is no evidence of voter fraud by illegal immigrants. This only makes sense because illegal immigrants are highly motivated to keep a low profile which means avoiding visits to city hall to register to vote.
There is also no evidence of meaningful voter fraud by legal immigrants. The number of incidents across the country is miniscule.
On the one hand it seems only right that we insure that only citizens vote, but on the other hand requiring documentary evidence will self-evidently reduce the voter rolls of the poor the most.
--Percy

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