|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: REMIX: Who Can Be Saved? | |||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
A good word about Deuteronomy. What about whom Jesus was addressing in Matthew?
jar writes: "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?" IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence." Keep in mind, however, that Jesus was addressing men who acknowledged God and who did not deny His existence. It says metaphorically that He addresses all nations, but He is talking with and teaching people whom did believe in God.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK I think I get your point. You are essentially saying that Jesus emphasized to them what they should do for others and not worry so much about pleasing Him.
But lets assume your basic argument concening the later attempts to change the Great Commission. What motives would the author of John have had regarding teaching what he did? What motives would Paul have had? How do these motives stand up in the overall message which they espoused? In other words, why did the message have to be changed? And why did the early church approve of the additions? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
...how could anyone know what the motives of the authors of the stories were and why would their motives even matter? How would the motives of the Sheep and Goat sermon matter any more, then?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Even the goats? A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead".
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im talking about the motives of the author.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In that case it matters little if and how the Great Commission changed.
So what if the deal seems sweeter and easier now? Its hard enough to get people to do anything.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Again, the point is that the Great Commission WAS changed.
So if Jesus actually said the Sheep/Goats parable, we could argue..(as you do) that the message represents what He wants us all to do, correct? You have always preferred this verse as one of your defining scriptures as to what Christianity is (or should be) about. Then when other Christians bring up scriptures from John or 2nd peter or Romans, you argue that these were attempts to change the original message. It is simply additional evidence that the Bible is the product of humans each creating the narrative they want to market. My point is why should we give any more weight to Matthew 25 than we do to John or Romans?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Dont the atheists on The Atheist Experience do the same thing? Does not their show represent an agenda of education and information? You should look at the whole body of writings and be honest about what is written. You should stop looking for things that can be taken out of context to suit YOUR agenda. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: You should look at the whole body of writings and be honest about what is written. You should stop looking for things that can be taken out of context to suit YOUR agenda. My only agenda is to promote the belief that Jesus Christ is alive in Spirit and waiting for humanity to freely accept and internalize this fact. You and ringo, in contrast, appear to promote the idea that WE humans are responsible for our future and that no God (or Messiah) is going to rescue us. Granted I see your point and yet do not believe it. You may say that by refusing to accept the facts that lead to your conclusions I am being dishonest with myself and others, but at this point in time, I do not concur.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Her examples do emphasize the doctrine of hereditary sin, however. An Episcopal Dictionary Of The Church "taken from the dogma of your cult"....
Anglican formularies have tended to speak of sanctification as the process of God's work within us by means of which we grow into the fullness of the redeemed life. In the 1979 BCP, sanctification has been closely associated with the Holy Eucharist, as in the prayer of thanksgiving: "Sanctify us also that we may faithfully receive this holy Sacrament, and serve you in unity, constancy, and peace; and at the last day bring us with all your saints into the joy of your eternal kingdom" (Eucharistic Prayer A, BCP, p. 363); and: "We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit" (Eucharistic Prayer B, BCP, p. 369). Edited by Phat, : addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good response! I actually did read all of what you quoted. Thanks for reemphasizing it though.
jar writes:
Exactly! I am also talking about behavior and nature. I don't simply expect God to rescue me without also changing me. Again, what I find irritating about your arguments is primarily the way that you verbally belittle your opponents.
Reading on you would have seen:
quote: Again, even there it talks about the consequences of the individual's behavior and nature, not what those long dead might have done or even what the individual actually does.jar writes: So my question to you is this: Again, if you look at the whole of the Episcopal Church's position it is that we are charged to rise above any innate self-centeredness. Can we rise above our innate self-centeredness, arrogance, and character without Gods help?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just agreeing on a global consensus for addressing global warming will require herculean sacrifice from every nation...be they spiritual or secular.
I predict that we will see some very challenging times--though I refuse to believe that we are facing the last days of humanity here on the planet. I will say that we could collectively become victims of a self-fulfilling prophecy if we fight amongst ourselves as to what everyone should believe. You have said before that Jesus was a failed Messiah, but the words that He said will be used to justify many actions by many people. Let's just hope that it all works out. It is ironic that the common dogma is fear of a unified one world government that is a secular humanist one and which minimizes the need for Jesus or religion in general. How ironic when, in fact, there will need to be a unified global consensus in order to deal with major problems. Whether or not this fulfills the prophetic interpretations of the apologists or becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy remains to be seen. Edited by Phat, : clarificationChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: If as you say it is but a story, the readers are the witnesses of what happened in the Garden of Eden. Where are the tons of witnesses of what happened in the Garden of Eden? AbE: And witness evidence is the absolute weakest least reliable evidence possible. Further, there are NOT tons of witnesses of any supernatural event. And if God is simply a character in a book, all we are witnesses of is what the book says. Do you believe that God exists outside of the book? Not asking if you know...that would require evidence. Which also explains why you always ask how anyone would know. Do you believe that God exists outside of the book...or any book....yes or no?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Good question. Do you think that there would be any way for you to know? If I believed that God existed would that even have any meaning?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Are you more likely to agree with what an atheist points out what is written in Genesis 2&3 or what a believer says in written in Genesis 2&3 or would you actually go read Genesis 2&3 and see for yourself what it says? Can you read Genesis 2&3 and just accept what is actually written or must you filter it through the additional layers of Dogmatic Apologist additions and revisions? First of all, why would I have any reason to mistrust the apologists? How do I know that their interpretation is any worse than what I may come up with through a plain reading? What type of reality are you hinting that I must accept?For example, you believe(correct me if I'm wrong) that the story teaches that God gave us the gift of discernment and that this is enough...that we should not expect any other interference, guidance, or help from God. In fact, you believe that there is no evidence that God interferes with or guides, adjusts, and charts peoples destiny. So in answer to whether I would trust an atheist's plain reading vs some believers, I would say no....I'll stick with the believers. And yet you claim to be a believer and yet teach that I Must do what needs to be done in my life. Its just not how I was taught is all. You may as well be an atheist.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024