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Author Topic:   Destiny/Free Will
peke
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 28 (8078)
04-01-2002 9:17 PM


Just wondering what people's views on Destiny/Free Will are.
I believe that people can control their fate, that not everything is a predetermined sequence of events. It has been shown that believing in something strongly enough can make that something happen, however improbable it may be. A study has shown that patients in a hospital who are prayed for have a better chance of recovery. The human mind can influence things in a non-predetermined way.
Issac Asminov wrote a trilogy about something he called phycho-history. It concerns the calculations of how a large group of people will act, mob psychology in a way. The actions of a large group could be calculated, but the calculations could always be thrown off if an individual with enough conviction/belief appeared to change the psychology.
Even if humans are bound by destiny, I believe that humans would eventually become aware of it and break the hold that 'destiny' would have. Like the way humans can fight down INSTINCTS in favor of being CIVILIZED. The instincts of an animal will always drive it the same way. A human can change that, the same way a human can change it's fate.
Attack this all you want! My only reservation being that you attack my ideas, not my words or my analogies.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 04-02-2002 12:18 AM peke has replied

  
Hieyeck
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 28 (8079)
04-01-2002 9:39 PM


This raises an interesting point
My personal belief is that Humankind in general is set to follow a certain path, whether by neccessity of survival or by a higher being, i'm not certain. However, how we choose to get there is by our own choice (i.e. a giant maze. there are infinite possibillities of reaching the goal, including backtracking).
Something i'm not too ready to believe in but is the one that i do trust right now is that this only holds true until we reach the stage where we are able to easily settle other planets. At this point, humankind will split up according to their own beliefs and traditions, and raise a planet to a culture's own way.

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 04-08-2002 2:15 PM Hieyeck has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 28 (8086)
04-02-2002 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by peke
04-01-2002 9:17 PM


[QUOTE]A study has shown that patients in a hospital who are prayed for have a better chance of recovery.>>
Actually, the studies which claimed a correlation are pretty flawed in methodology. See:
http://www.skepdic.com/prayer.html
It's actually true that people heal better when their OWN outlook is upbeat and hopeful, and if they have a support group.
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by peke, posted 04-01-2002 9:17 PM peke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Brad McFall, posted 04-02-2002 11:28 AM nator has not replied
 Message 5 by peke, posted 04-02-2002 10:08 PM nator has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 4 of 28 (8095)
04-02-2002 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by nator
04-02-2002 12:18 AM


Right, and I "prayed" to plants in a high school experiemental biology class. It was the emotion not Prayer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 04-02-2002 12:18 AM nator has not replied

  
peke
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 28 (8124)
04-02-2002 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nator
04-02-2002 12:18 AM


quote:
It's actually true that people heal better when their OWN outlook is upbeat and hopeful, and if they have a support group.
It still proves my point. People can change their 'fate' with enough willpower/emotional support.
I'm arguing that destiny cannot be because that would mean that humans could only improve to a point. That would be true for most other creatures in a way, but humans are tool-makers. Whatever we cannot improve by ourselves, we'll improve by building something to do it for us. The fact we can keep improving ourselfs excludes destiny, because we would eventually find some scientific laws that would predict what humans would do. Destiny would have to keep itself secret, because if the rules were known to us, we would change them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 04-02-2002 12:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 04-03-2002 11:20 AM peke has replied
 Message 10 by nator, posted 04-07-2002 10:11 AM peke has not replied
 Message 13 by compmage, posted 04-09-2002 11:10 AM peke has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 6 of 28 (8143)
04-03-2002 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by peke
04-02-2002 10:08 PM


Peke,
I am not poking fun at you, I am still working at a misperception of me so I can imagine if I was not personally speaking but trying to situate Newton's reference to GOD in the proper sociology I would still not necessarily be dissing your point to will, to wit, I had joined PUGWASH started by Einstein and Russell but I think that some other kind of relation of science and society is in process no matter what I will. I am interested in starting a Web-Zine on Nano-ecology if there are any takers with a little more comp experience than I have the time in the biology for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by peke, posted 04-02-2002 10:08 PM peke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by peke, posted 04-04-2002 8:02 PM Brad McFall has not replied

  
peke
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 28 (8195)
04-04-2002 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brad McFall
04-03-2002 11:20 AM


???? I have no idea what your last 2 messages were about...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 04-03-2002 11:20 AM Brad McFall has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-04-2002 8:31 PM peke has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 8 of 28 (8198)
04-04-2002 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by peke
04-04-2002 8:02 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Peke:
???? I have no idea what your last 2 messages were about...
What? You think you're special?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by peke, posted 04-04-2002 8:02 PM peke has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 04-05-2002 10:21 AM Percy has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 9 of 28 (8207)
04-05-2002 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
04-04-2002 8:31 PM


That was funny. I do not know why or how BASIC was developed at Dart-mouth especially.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-04-2002 8:31 PM Percy has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 10 of 28 (8266)
04-07-2002 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by peke
04-02-2002 10:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Peke:
[b] It still proves my point. People can change their 'fate' with enough willpower/emotional support.[/QUOTE]
Well, the idea is that the emotional state of a patient is reflected in the kinds of hormones which are released by the brain, and these hormones affect how well the body heals itself. It is also true that no matter how well-supported and happy some patients are, some still die, and no matter how depressed and alone other patients are, some still survive.
[QUOTE]I'm arguing that destiny cannot be because that would mean that humans could only improve to a point. That would be true for most other creatures in a way, but humans are tool-makers. Whatever we cannot improve by ourselves, we'll improve by building something to do it for us. The fact we can keep improving ourselfs excludes destiny, because we would eventually find some scientific laws that would predict what humans would do. Destiny would have to keep itself secret, because if the rules were known to us, we would change them.[/b]
Well, there are scientific laws which limit and, on a very basic level, predict what we would do. Physical law limits us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by peke, posted 04-02-2002 10:08 PM peke has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 11 of 28 (8333)
04-08-2002 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Hieyeck
04-01-2002 9:39 PM


I guess what I meant was that I am not a biological determinist but one who maintians or trys to maintain a difference between orbits and trajectories in biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Hieyeck, posted 04-01-2002 9:39 PM Hieyeck has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-08-2002 2:45 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 12 of 28 (8337)
04-08-2002 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brad McFall
04-08-2002 2:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
I guess what I meant was that I am not a biological determinist but one who maintians or trys to maintain a difference between orbits and trajectories in biology.
Does this mean that Brad and Hieyeck are the same person?
Incoherent and coherent(?) alter-egos?
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 04-08-2002 2:15 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Brad McFall, posted 04-09-2002 11:38 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 13 of 28 (8379)
04-09-2002 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by peke
04-02-2002 10:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Peke:
I'm arguing that destiny cannot be because that would mean that humans could only improve to a point. That would be true for most other creatures in a way, but humans are tool-makers. Whatever we cannot improve by ourselves, we'll improve by building something to do it for us.
How so? Humanity could be destined to die tomorrow due to a astroid stricking the earth. Regardless of our technology, if the asteroid was large enought there would be nothing we could do to stop it. On the flips side, why couldn't our destiny be to continually grow and expand? Where is the limit there?
quote:
Originally posted by Peke:
Whatever we cannot improve by ourselves, we'll improve by building something to do it for us. The fact we can keep improving ourselfs excludes destiny, because we would eventually find some scientific laws that would predict what humans would do.
Maybe that is what we are destined to do? Does not exclude destiny.
quote:
Originally posted by Peke:
Destiny would have to keep itself secret, because if the rules were known to us, we would change them.
That is assuming that we could change them.
While I am not sure as to the existance of fate, the whole issue is meaningless unless we know what our fate is and then attempt to avoid it. Here you also run into a problem; if there is no fate, we can not then know what our fate is and therefore can't test if we can avoid it.
You are therefore left to wonder; is there a fate that I have just not discovered yet, or does fate not exists and I am searching in vain?
------------------
I have conquered worlds...

This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 14 of 28 (8383)
04-09-2002 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Minnemooseus
04-08-2002 2:45 PM


Who is Heiyek? It is true that I do not post anymore on GIS and Biogeogrpahy and feel that the Berklyites would rather not have my slant on BIOSPHERE DATA PROJECT but my net etemology is rather clear
IMpossible Taxacom- Grehan stops snail mail correspondence
ICR vision- sent off with more than 4 hours of information
True seekers- always play twistor
Other web sites looked at
MSN or CGI go figure. ::

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-08-2002 2:45 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Raaven4
Guest


Message 15 of 28 (8878)
04-24-2002 3:02 PM


Destiny or so called "fate" does not exist. There is an infinite number of possibilities that a person can choose. Each possibility leads to more infinite possibilities and so on. Fate is a crutch for the weak-minded just as religion is.

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Philip, posted 04-26-2002 1:06 AM You have not replied
 Message 20 by Brad McFall, posted 04-28-2002 5:34 PM You have not replied
 Message 26 by b0_0, posted 10-12-2002 5:12 PM You have not replied

     
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