Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9071 total)
582 online now:
Dredge, dwise1, Percy (Admin), Tanypteryx (4 members, 578 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Upcoming Birthdays: Percy
Post Volume: Total: 893,110 Year: 4,222/6,534 Month: 436/900 Week: 142/150 Day: 12/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   It's not really a theory
stratnerd
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 23 (8005)
03-29-2002 9:18 PM


horsegal243 et al.,

I totally agree, sort-a. Evolution is not a theory; it's a paradigm. My thinking is this: theories are working models that explain several phenomena, whereas paradigms are "world views" and much more encompassing. Evolution is about as broad-sweeping as a concept can become and is composed of several theories that explain its inner workings (e.g., allopatric speciation,sexual selection, natural selection, etc). I dunno, I'm not a philosopher of science and I would greatly appreciate other opinions.


Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by nator, posted 03-30-2002 8:42 AM stratnerd has taken no action

  
no2creation
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 23 (8009)
03-30-2002 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Punisher
03-29-2002 2:06 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Punisher:
You missed the entire point of that statement. It has to do with spelling errors.

n2c feeling silly for his spelling error

Maybe you'd like to shed some light on how Darwins Study of Finches isn't a good example.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Punisher, posted 03-29-2002 2:06 PM Punisher has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by TrueCreation, posted 03-30-2002 2:11 AM no2creation has taken no action

  
no2creation
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 23 (8010)
03-30-2002 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Punisher
03-29-2002 9:52 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Punisher:
Hey n2c, I'm not sure Darwin's finch observation is a good example. Finches with big beaks and little beaks are still finches. That is not evolution. BTW, guess what is on the Galapagos Islands today? Finches with big beaks and little beaks.

Also, hate to burst your bubble, but no one has read about Darwin's sutdy here at

[This message has been edited by Punisher, 03-29-2002]


The principles of evolution by natural selection are finally beginning to inform medicine

If you don't understand Darwins Study, maybe you could have a read of the above. It comes from the Scientific Americans website, and includes a good deal of information on what can be observed today using evolutionary principles. Strains of bacteria, like Staphylococcus aureus, Enterococcus faecalis, Mycobacterium tuberculosis and Pseudomonas aeruginosa, have all become more resistant to antibiotics.

What is interesting is that through Darwins work and the ToE, we can begin to understand what is happening. Or maybe you have a better explanation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Punisher, posted 03-29-2002 9:52 AM Punisher has taken no action

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 23 (8012)
03-30-2002 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by no2creation
03-30-2002 1:29 AM


"Maybe you'd like to shed some light on how Darwins Study of Finches isn't a good example."
--I'm not sure that any living example would be plausable, mabye killer whales and dolphins would be a little better. Another one of those things in the support of both views though I guess.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by no2creation, posted 03-30-2002 1:29 AM no2creation has taken no action

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1401 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 23 (8016)
03-30-2002 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by stratnerd
03-29-2002 9:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by stratnerd:
horsegal243 et al.,

I totally agree, sort-a. Evolution is not a theory; it's a paradigm. My thinking is this: theories are working models that explain several phenomena, whereas paradigms are "world views" and much more encompassing. Evolution is about as broad-sweeping as a concept can become and is composed of several theories that explain its inner workings (e.g., allopatric speciation,sexual selection, natural selection, etc). I dunno, I'm not a philosopher of science and I would greatly appreciate other opinions.


Um, the Theory of Evolution is, indeed, a theory, just like any other scientific theory. It doesn't matter how broad-sweeping it is.

Gravitational theory is broad-sweeping, too. Do you think that Gravitational Theory is not a theory, but simply a paradigm, or "world view", as well?

------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."

-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by stratnerd, posted 03-29-2002 9:18 PM stratnerd has taken no action

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7114 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 21 of 23 (8361)
04-09-2002 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by horsegal243
03-28-2002 11:50 AM


my biggest problem with evolution is the fact that its not readily available and can only be made on evidence thats shaky at best. Just because a radiometric dating test shows a billion years or what not does not meant that it is a billion years old its just that appears to be that old, chances are very likely that it is but you never know what could have happend to the samples or how flawed your method may really be. I also really dont think that it would be plausable for apes to evolve into man, it just would take way to long and require so many variables that make it completely assumed.

Also i usually see atheism as an escape from responsibility and a desperate attempt to be remembered by not following the group and letting things pass you by. Ive said before that without Jesus and the promise of afterlife i have to purpose to do anything for anyone for any reason. I wouldnt have anything to live for, anyone to look up to, but that is of course just me and everything i say is meaningless since ill probably never get a halfway acceptable college degree or a good paying job. I can tell already that im doomed to live a typical middle class life already, probably very single. I cant stand the way some humans act, how desperate they are for any kind of attention and how much they want to be loved but rarely ever get it or try to get it. To be an ignorant child with no responsibilities again would make me blissful but i know that i have responsibilities to my beloved Jesus, to my family, and to all those that are going to hell and dont realize how many consequences that are associated with their actions. People right now are generally extremely self centered and very opposed to any sort of change, theres a war going on right in the middle east now because of land, something so trivial but so very necessary to survival and somewhat honor. Even worse is the fact that discrimination is very widespread and im not talking about racial im talking about way of life and amount of wealth discrimination. The very fact that people have to live on the streets to live should tell you something about how bad our society is becoming. Of course i dont see working nine hour shifts in an office much different either than you can have a somewhat good living off of it. Actually as far as i see it there isnt very much racial, or sexist discrimination going on in the U.S.
Thats all for now, need to get some sleep. im sure i said something relatively offensive or at least ignorant in someones eyes but again your opinion on science doesnt matter to me if you cant have some faith in Jesus.

------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by horsegal243, posted 03-28-2002 11:50 AM horsegal243 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by nator, posted 04-09-2002 9:27 AM KingPenguin has taken no action
 Message 23 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 04-09-2002 11:14 AM KingPenguin has taken no action

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1401 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 23 (8375)
04-09-2002 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by KingPenguin
04-09-2002 12:33 AM


quote:
Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[b]my biggest problem with evolution is the fact that its not readily available[/QUOTE]

Do you mean that because you find some of it difficult to understand, you don't accept it?

If so, then perhaps this is a problem with you and your ability to understand, not that the theory is false?

quote:
and can only be made on evidence thats shaky at best.

Considering that you just admitted that you don't understand the ToE, how can you know if the evidence is shaky or not?

quote:
Just because a radiometric dating test shows a billion years or what not does not meant that it is a billion years old its just that appears to be that old, chances are very likely that it is but you never know what could have happend to the samples or how flawed your method may really be.

Demonstrate how all the various dating methods are flawed in such a way that they almost always ALL produce matching dates from a single sample.

I have asked the above repeatedly and have never gotten a real answer. HOW can all of the various dating methods be flawed in such a way as to make the dates come out the SAME?

quote:
I also really dont think that it would be plausable for apes to evolve into man, it just would take way to long and require so many variables that make it completely assumed.

Apes didn't evolve into humans. Apes and humans share a common ape-like ancestor.

Ignoring the evidence for human (or any other kind of) evolution does not make it go away, nor does your misunderstanding of it.

Here is some evidence:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/cre_args.html

quote:
Also i usually see atheism

Um, what does Atheism have to do with Biology?

quote:
as an escape from responsibility and a desperate attempt to be remembered by not following the group and letting things pass you by.

Huh? Atheism is ALL ABOUT personal responsibility. It's the Christians who blame their bad behavior on the Devil, you know.

I don't know many desperate Atheists. I do know of quite a few desperate Christians, however.

quote:
Ive said before that without Jesus and the promise of afterlife i have to purpose to do anything for anyone for any reason.

Well, that's too bad. You need the promise of a reward or you would be a completely self-centered jerk? That's pretty, well, juvenile. A bribe is the only way to motivate you to do the right thing. Pretty shallow.

quote:
I wouldnt have anything to live for, anyone to look up to, but that is of course just me and everything i say is meaningless since ill probably never get a halfway acceptable college degree or a good paying job.

Well, that's not very self-supportive. You sound a bit down on yourself.

quote:
I can tell already that im doomed to live a typical middle class life already, probably very single. I cant stand the way some humans act, how desperate they are for any kind of attention and how much they want to be loved but rarely ever get it or try to get it. To be an ignorant child with no responsibilities again would make me blissful but i know that i have responsibilities to my beloved Jesus, to my family, and to all those that are going to hell and dont realize how many consequences that are associated with their actions.

How sad that your religion has forced this heavy weight on you.

quote:
People right now are generally extremely self centered and very opposed to any sort of change, theres a war going on right in the middle east now because of land, something so trivial but so very necessary to survival and somewhat honor.

The war is much more than about land, KP. It's a religious war. And there are Fundamentalist Christians which are delighted that it is going on, and are doing their best to keep it going. See, some of them believe that the Second Coming will be precipitated by a great war in the Holy Land.

quote:
Even worse is the fact that discrimination is very widespread and im not talking about racial im talking about way of life and amount of wealth discrimination. The very fact that people have to live on the streets to live should tell you something about how bad our society is becoming.

I also think that the wage gap and the way we treat the poor in this country is atrocious. The minimum wage is not a living wage.

I am curious...what does the Wage Gap have to do with the ToE?

quote:
Of course i dont see working nine hour shifts in an office much different either than you can have a somewhat good living off of it. Actually as far as i see it there isnt very much racial, or sexist discrimination going on in the U.S.

Oh, there's plenty of racial and sex discrimination.

[QUOTE]Thats all for now, need to get some sleep. im sure i said something relatively offensive or at least ignorant in someones eyes but again your opinion on science doesnt matter to me if you cant have some faith in Jesus.
[/b]


So, Christians are the only people that matter, eh? Tell me again how self-centered people are in this country again?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by KingPenguin, posted 04-09-2002 12:33 AM KingPenguin has taken no action

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 23 of 23 (8380)
04-09-2002 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by KingPenguin
04-09-2002 12:33 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[B]my biggest problem with evolution is the fact that its not readily available and can only be made on evidence thats shaky at best.
[/QUOTE]

Actually the evidence is quite available. There are a large number of books published over the last 20 years that have made the more difficult aspects of science readily available to the general public.

quote:

Just because a radiometric dating test shows a billion years or what not does not meant that it is a billion years old its just that appears to be that old, chances are very likely that it is but you never know what could have happend to the samples or how flawed your method may really be.

That is thereason for the use of orthogonal methods and internal controls in the dating techniques. It weeds out the bulk of the uncertianty.

quote:

I also really dont think that it would be plausable for apes to evolve into man, it just would take way to long and require so many variables that make it completely assumed.

I am sorry but you really need to read a bit more about the theory and then post again on this aspect. The real basis for the evolution of Homo sapiens has been posted as nauseum and I see no reason the repost it here.

quote:

Also i usually see atheism as an escape from responsibility and a desperate attempt to be remembered by not following the group and letting things pass you by. Ive said before that without Jesus and the promise of afterlife i have to purpose to do anything for anyone for any reason. I wouldnt have anything to live for, anyone to look up to, but that is of course just me and everything i say is meaningless since ill probably never get a halfway acceptable college degree or a good paying job. I can tell already that im doomed to live a typical middle class life already, probably very single. I cant stand the way some humans act, how desperate they are for any kind of attention and how much they want to be loved but rarely ever get it or try to get it. To be an ignorant child with no responsibilities again would make me blissful but i know that i have responsibilities to my beloved Jesus, to my family, and to all those that are going to hell and dont realize how many consequences that are associated with their actions. People right now are generally extremely self centered and very opposed to any sort of change, theres a war going on right in the middle east now because of land, something so trivial but so very necessary to survival and somewhat honor.

First, it has been my observation that it is generally the deists, and specifically those from the Judeo/christian/moslem lineage who take the least responsibility for the actions. They "surrender" to gods will or say that they were swayed by satan. Never that THEY screwed up and did a bad thing. Second, not all people who understand that evolution occured are athiests, most are thiests or agnostics (the later is me ). Theism and science are two different things. As for the rest of the paragraph, I am sorry that on a personal level that you feel that your life is so empty and is not going anywhere. If religions makes you feel better fine, but that has nothing to do with a scientific discipline. I actually consider many christians that I have met to be far more childish because they do not want to take responsibility for their own actions.

quote:

Even worse is the fact that discrimination is very widespread and im not talking about racial im talking about way of life and amount of wealth discrimination. The very fact that people have to live on the streets to live should tell you something about how bad our society is becoming. Of course i dont see working nine hour shifts in an office much different either than you can have a somewhat good living off of it.

And that has what to do with evolution. I do not like the idea that people who want to work end up without jobs, but not everyone who lives on the street wants a job. It is very un-PC to say this but it is the truth. While in Grad school and living ina very bad neighborhood myself and my roommates would sometimes offer to buy some of the local homeless sandwich at the local circle K. Some would accept and some would want the $ but not the sandwhich (which we would never do). I came to find out that some of the homeless were on the streets of their own volition. Some did not want to have to work for "the man", I wasted very little pity on these; others had gotten stuck in bad situations or had mental problems, these are the ones that we tried to help.

And what is wrong with working 9 hour shifts, that actually would be a short day for me .

quote:

your opinion on science doesnt matter to me if you cant have some faith in Jesus.

Fortunately your opinion has little to do with the real world. I hope that neither you nor yours will ever need the services of my company. However, in the event that you do you will be happy to know that I am quite good at science and it might just save your life or the life of someone that you care about.

Anyway, I hope that you feel more upbeat after some sleep.

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by KingPenguin, posted 04-09-2002 12:33 AM KingPenguin has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022