Christianity and the End Times

I see no point to anything you are saying, certainly no relevance to the topic of the Rapture as it started to be discussed.

You 100% reject any sort of early Christian views on the issues. Especially a pre-100 AD text.(You just want to blather without any attempt to even use the Bible to back up other parts of the Bible like 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 backing up any claim of yours)You lack integrity.4 Ezra has seals and trumps like Revelation and 1 Corinthians 15.This early Christian prophecy text has parallels as seen here in chapter 2

quote:

---

2 Esdras 2

​

Then I asked an angel, Who are these, my lord? 45 He answered and said to me, These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God. Now they are being crowned, and receive palms. 46 Then I said to the angel, Who is that young man who is placing crowns on them and putting palms in their hands? 47 He answered and said to me, He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world.

---

Like this here in 1 Corinthians 15(which itself is written by Paul who wrote 1 Thessalonians 4)

quote:

---

39 Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for human beings, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; indeed, star differs from star in glory.

​

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

---

and parallels to this too in 1 Corinthians 15 .

quote:

---

50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters,[l] is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die,[m] but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

---

Clement of Alexandria quoted 4 Ezra (which is chapter 3-14 of 2 Esdras), so it was used by Christians in the 100s AD.Here is Encyclopedia Britannica (vol4 , p.557) on 2 Esdras.

quote:

---

The central portion of the work (chapters 3-14), consisting of 7 visions revealed to the seer Salathiel-Ezra, was written in Aramaic by an unknown Jew around AD 100. In the mid-2nd century AD, a Christian author added to an introductory portion (chapters 1-2) to the Greek edition of the bok, and a century later another Christian writer appended chapters 15-16 to the same edition. It is possible that the whole Greek edition (from which all subsequent translations were derived, the Aramaic version having been lost) was edited by a Christian since there are passages in the central Jewish section that reflect Christian doctrines in original sin and Christology.

---

This book is canonical in the Ethiopian church. The Ethiopian, Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, Arabic and all pre-Latin versions has a much longer chapter 7 than the Latin versions.Scholars now know exactly what happened to cause the Latin versions to loose 70 verses in chapter 7.2 Esdras - WikipediaCodex Sangermanensis I - WikipediaFirst, know that this dates, for certain to the pre-100 AD year.

quote:

---

In the case of 4 Ezra, the identification of the eagle’s heads in the Eagle Vision (chaps. 11—12) as the Flavian emperors leads us to the conclusion that the work was composed in
the time of the Roman emperor Domitian (81—96 ce) and most likely during the latter part of his reign. Indeed, its date can be set more precisely to the last decade of the first century ce.

​

http://www.augsburgfortress.org/...ds/9780800699680Intro.pdf

---

Chapter 7 (in this EARLY Christian writing) is important when its comes to body resurrection issues.Here is the Good News Translation.2 Esdras 7 - GNTA Bible - Bible Study ToolsHere is the NRSV2 Esdras 7 NRSVUE - Response to Ezra’s Questions - When I - Bible Gateway(The King James is based on the chopped off Latin manuscript, the above 2 are based on the older translations.)There is a question and answer on what happens to the soul after death and before Judgment Day.There are different answers depending on whether those have or have not "kept the way of the Most High".Here was the question in verse 75

quote:

---

I answered and said, If I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, show this also to your servant: whether after death, as soon as everyone of us yields up the soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when you will renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?

---

Another question in verses 100-101.

quote:

---

100 Then I answered and said, Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?

​

101 He said to me, They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations.

---

Verses 112-115.

quote:

---

He answered me and said, This present world is not the end; the full glory does not remain in it; therefore those who were strong prayed for the weak. 113 But the day of judgment will be the end of this age and the beginning of the immortal age to come, in which corruption has passed away, 114 sinful indulgence has come to an end, unbelief has been cut off, and righteousness has increased and truth has appeared. 115 Therefore no one will then be able to have mercy on someone who has been condemned in the judgment, or to harm someone who is victorious.

---

Chapter 6 has seals and trumps. A body (if a person is still alive) turning into a spirit.

quote:

---

20 When the seal is placed upon the age that is about to pass away, then I will show these signs: the books shall be opened before the face of the firmament, and all shall see my judgment[f] together. 21 Children a year old shall speak with their voices, and pregnant women shall give birth to premature children at three and four months, and these shall live and leap about. 22 Sown places shall suddenly appear unsown, and full storehouses shall suddenly be found to be empty; 23 the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it, they shall suddenly be terrified. 24 At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies, the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified, and the springs of the fountains shall stand still, so that for three hours they shall not flow.

​

25 It shall be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you shall be saved and shall see my salvation and the end of my world. 26 And they shall see those who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth’s[g] inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit. 27 For evil shall be blotted out, and deceit shall be quenched

---

You haven't even matched 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.You never attempted to match them to Revelation 19-20.Your words are hollow, and you can't site a single early source to back up anything you say.You can't even offer any harmony of the letters of Paul.

Absent any evidence at all.No wonder she hates it that I am quoting a 1st century Christian prophetic writing.It is too close to the views of the Biblical writers for her comfort.

Evidence for what? This isn't an academic exercise. I don't "hate" anything you've said, I just find it totally irrelevant and pointless. The subject has barely been broached, but the scripture behind it is well enough known for beginning the discussion. As usual you seem to be way off in some world of your own and I can't follow you. Are you personally anticipating the Rapture? Do you have any personal interest in being spiritually ready for it? You don't even consider yourself a Christian, do you?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I don't "hate" anything you've said, I just find it totally irrelevant and pointless. The subject has barely been broached, but the scripture behind it is well enough known for beginning the discussion.

---

So, what exactly is your point in posting then.Which scripture did you quote so far (I honestly forgot anything you and jaywill quoted).I am at a loss and where should I begin (you posted nothing)In post 215, I recall you made a claim of "7 years" tribulation. There is no "7 years tribulation" anywhere, is there?

quote:

---

You don't even consider yourself a Christian, do you?

---

Start by quoting the Christian Bible to back up the 7 year thingy.That included the Hebrew Bible, naturally.When did this 7 year thingy first start?Which Church Father (if any) ever had this 7 year interpretation?EDITHow soon I forget. Jaywill did mention Revelation 19 after he blathered about "the bride". That was one reason I thought to bring up 2 Esdras (I made the mistake of calling the entire thing "4 Ezra" but chapters 1-2 are called "5 Ezra" by scholars, and the chapters 3-14 or 2 Esdras are "4 Ezra", and 15-16 are "6 Ezra". I quoted a verse from chapter 16 and called it "4 Ezra") and the other closely-related reason was the "rapture" issues.(my only quote of chapter 16 was this :Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them)ALSO, the Russian Church considers is canonical just like the Ethiopian (I did not know the former held it to be and I don't know much about the circumstances of the latter).Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

quote:

---

That's a good framework for studying it I think, but the foolish virgins had the door shut in their face so there isn't much to support the idea that they would later join the wise virgins.

---

The point is observed. However, it also does not explicitly say that they perished forever.Now if the oil represents the Holy Spirit and the foolish virgins had the oil then to say they were lost forever would mean they did so WITH the Holy Spirit. Are you ready to believe that?The oil in the lamp would mean regeneration.
If they perished after being regenerated, that means eternal life is on loan and not a gift.If the extra oil in the vessel truly signifies sanctification of the Holy Spirit of the soul, then for them to be lost forever would be for them to perish after regeneration and sanctification. That can't be right (Eph. 2:8) .The Holy Spirit is given to the disciple FOREVER and not temporarily - The Holy Spirit will be Christ dwelling in them, and that FOREVER .Since the Third Person of the Triune God is given to indwell the believers for eternity, the foolish virgins, though late for the wedding celebration, must join the others at some remedial latter time.This is consistent with too much other teaching of the New Testament.What I would recommend is that in that passage we just realize that the FOCUS is on the reward of sanctification rather than the gift of eternal life. Why can't Jesus Christ FOCUS on THAT matter at times ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't want to belabor this, I need to study it more, but the actual phrase is "had no oil in their lamps" which could imply that they had not received the Holy Spirit. There is also the idea there that they had run out, so I admit it's open to your view. But there remains some question in my mind whether it is a matter of not continuing to be filled with the Spirit or never having been filled in the first place. If the latter that does call into question their standing as Christians at all, and that image of the door shut against them and Jesus' saying "I do not know you" is so final-sounding it is hard to imagine they are going to get another chance.But we agree in any case that the oil represents the Holy Spirit and that we should be constantly being filled with the Spirit if we are to be ready for His coming. Which I think is a way of agreeing with you that we need to be always growing in sanctification.We could talk about what we must do to be constantly filled with the Spirit.But I'm also interested in what you think about the Great Tribulation which comes after the Rapture. I understand it to be the wrath of God on an ungodly world, from which prepared believers have been promised escape.The image of an uncountable number of people waving palm branches ... seems to be a different group of saints than those taken in the Rapture. They are described as having come out of great tribulation, which implies that many will yet be saved during that period, but it appears to be a different kind of salvation than the Rapture.Here is John Walvoord on these saints. He believes the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Dozens of Protestant Reformers and their precursors saw it as the Roman Caesars, and I've been leaning to their view of these things, though the whole subject can be very confusing and hard to sort out.In any case I'd like to know your opinion because you appear to be an avid student of all these things. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I don't want to belabor this, I need to study it more, but the actual phrase is "had no oil in their lamps"

---

Which translation is this? I refer to the Recovery Version which reads - All of the TEN have lamps burning which should mean ALL TEN have oil to burn in their lamps.What distinguishes prudent virgins from the foolish ones is that former took OIL "in their vessels WITH their lamps" .ALL TEN are virgins unto the Bridegroom should tell us they are on equal status as lovers to Christ WHOM they eagerly EXPECT to come. All Christians who are regenerated have the Holy Spirit in their enlivened human spirit.The foolish virgins did not bring with them the oil in their vessels aside from the burning oil in their lamps. This is a reserve, an extra portion in the OTHER container - the vessel aside from the burning lamp. It is the EXTRA oil which makes the difference between prudence and foolishness. We have TEN virgins all with lamps burning with OIL.
We have FIVE foolish virgins who took no EXTRA oil in vessels.
We have FIVE prudent virgins who took EXTRA oil in vessels WITH their lamps.While the Bridegroom tarried and delayed his coming they ALL became drowsy and slept. I agree with the interpretation that this probably means as Christ delayed His soon return many Christians expire and sleep the sleep of physically dying in the church age.At some future time the word goes out to rise and go forth to MEET the Bridegroom. All lamps were burning with oil. The foolish are caught in an awkward situation because they have no EXTRA oil in their vessels. The prudent virgins in a similar situation are better PREPARED. It is the resurrection and going to MEET the Lord which EXPOSES the foolishness and the prudence of those Christians.While there is always the aspect of brotherly love, fellowship and communion among brother and sister Christians, there IS an aspect of personal responsibility which no one ELSE can perform for EACH believer. She or he must have wisdom to prepared herself or himself. Though throughout the church age Christians can pray for one another and supply grace to one another, there remains some aspect of PERSONAL responsibility to one's OWN testimony - "trimmed their OWN lamps" Notice that the PRICE to obtain the extra oil should have been paid WHILE they were awake. Now that they are all arising from sleep, the opportunity to pay the price to obtain the extra oil manifests unwise TARDINESS, Procrastination of paying the price when it SHOULD have been paid now means misfortune.Some saints will resurrect and realize that it was FOOLISH for them NOT to have paid a price for the saturation of the Holy Spirit in their SOUL ( the vessel ) though they did possess the Holy Spirit in their innermost spirit from regeneration.Some of us Christians will discover that the REGENERATION while qualifying us for the gift of eternal life did not always qualify us to meet Christ the Bridegroom for the celebration of His marriage.Perhaps I wonder today "Why are you so much loving the Lord Jesus? Why are you spending this time to walk by the Spirit when you could be spending time on other things. You appear foolish to me because you occupy yourself in matters that are not necessary."This foolish attitude will one day be exposed in many Christians. They thought it was a waste of time to be sanctified, diving into the Word of God, walking in Spirit, obeying the teaching of the anointing to LIVE Christ as if He should come at ANY MOMENT.But the actual imprudence of their attitude will be seen. Now the price to obtain the Holy Spirit is STILL paid. But it is paid WHILE the festivities of His return are taking place. From those festivities they are excluded. He does not even say He knows them.For length's sake let me conclude this post.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

which could imply that they had not received the Holy Spirit.

---

ALL of the lamps GOING OUT must mean that ALL were burning and ALL had oil.I would take it then that the going OUT of the lamp's lighting means that it is manifest that REGENERATION was not enough needed for the festive celebration of the specific joys of Christ's return commencing the millennial kingdom.Remember that this parable pertains to the righteousness of the KINGDOM - the government of God. Love from the saints towards the Bridegroom is also a matter of KINGDOM government for the next age -Notice the beginning of the teaching - The words "At that time" mean the close of the church age and the commencement of the age of the millennial kingdom. The time of righteous reward to the overcoming saints from the church age of grace is now at hand. At that time the prudent verses the foolish during the church age will become clearly manifest.I'll continue some additional thoughts latter.

quote:

---

We could talk about what we must do to be constantly filled with the Spirit.

​

But I'm also interested in what you think about the Great Tribulation which comes after the Rapture. I understand it to be the wrath of God on an ungodly world, from which prepared believers have been promised escape.

---

You know that so much of the New Testament contains exhortations to walk by the Holy Spirit. This means to enjoy taking Jesus Christ as the source of our living within. We as Christians must learn to walk step by step in the enjoyment of Jesus Christ.Every act of obeying the Holy Spirit must result in some amount of Him moving from the innermost kernel of our being out into our personality. Walk by the Spirit, Paul says, and we shall by means fuflill the lust of the flesh.We have to take this step in Jesus and take that step in Jesus. We must learn to take each step in the enjoyment of Jesus as all we need. This certainly is a life long learning matter.Walk by the Spirit.
We learn to say "No" to the old way of living and "Yes" to the Spirit of Christ in our regenerated spirit.He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit - First Cor. 6:17.In our regenerated spirit dwells the Holy Spirit - the Lord Jesus in His form as the Holy Spirit. Heeding Him causes Him to have more and more influence over our soul - that is our personality.When I was very young as a Christian I was taught how to begin each day with God. That means to set aside a definite time to be in the enjoyment of Him in the word and prayer. This is a way to begin each day. Each day is a NEW day. And each day we should learn to set aside an amount of time FOR the enjoyment of Jesus Christ.We may start small and grow to a longer time. But that we HAVE such a daily time is excellent. It makes a difference in walking by the Lord Jesus. And learning to walk in Christ is wise for preparation to meet Him.This is a brief word on the practical matter of readiness that you asked about.Please notice that Christ said TWO will be in a field working, or TWO will be at a mill grinding or TWO will be in a bed sleeping. One is taken and one is left. Now this must have to do with very inward things of being BEFORE Christ in the heart. And that in doing the mundane matters of our daily responsibilities.This matter of TWO being at their daily life and one raptured and the other left (temporarily I would say) is the outcome of all that Romans 8 teaches about setting the mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Christ is.The mind set on the spirit is life and peace. In our daily mundane walk we should learn to love the Lord Jesus and set out mind on the Holy Spirit. This will become unconscious. We can tell not by how we ACT but by how we REACT.At any rate it matters to walk by the Spirit. And those who dismiss this as foolish or time wasting, not being necessary, may just realize it was foolish to neglect such a daily walk with Jesus Christ.Do you understand what I am saying here? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Lack of oil is materialistic and earthy (btw in Hebrew oil and sperm are the same word and it actually is the very word we get SEMON from)jaywill

quote:

---

The foolish virgins do not perish eternally. But they are late for the celebration.
They end up paying the same price for the extra oil in the vessel anyway. But they do so LATE.

---

Faith

quote:

---

That's a good framework for studying it I think, but the foolish virgins had the door shut in their face so there isn't much to support the idea that they would later join the wise virgins.

---

Look at Matthew 22.The lack of garmets is an issue.

quote:

---

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

​

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

​

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

​

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

---

Many are called by few chosen?The whole world?Then Christians have problems too:Only 5 out of 10 Christians had the oil to be saved.Now we have a deeper meaning in this post:

quote:

---

ALL of the lamps GOING OUT must mean that ALL were burning and ALL had oil.

​

I would take it then that the going OUT of the lamp's lighting means that it is manifest that REGENERATION was not enough needed for the festive celebration of the specific joys of Christ's return commencing the millennial kingdom.

​

Remember that this parable pertains to the righteousness of the KINGDOM - the government of God. Love from the saints towards the Bridegroom is also a matter of KINGDOM government for the next age -

---

I am reminded of the words of Jesus in sayings 24 and 37 of the Gospel of Thomas

quote:

---

Logos of Jesus 24

​

His disciples said to him, "Show us the place where you are, since it is necessary for us to seek it."

​

He said to them, "Whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light, and he lights up the whole world. If he does not shine, he is darkness."

---

quote:

---

Logos of Jesus 37

​

His disciples said, "When will you become revealed to us and when shall we see you?"

​

Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and place them under your feet like little children and tread on them, then will you see the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid"

---

It seems Jesus might have been less materialistic than some verses indicate.But The Gospel of Thomas had rules too.

quote:

---

Saying 26

​

Jesus said, "You see the mote in your brother's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye. When you cast the beam out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to cast the mote from your brother's eye."

​

Saying 27
"If you do not fast as regards the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the Sabbath as a Sabbath, you will not see the father."

---

Naturally anything to do with Sabbaths (and for that matter Synagogues) will be seen as outdated to today's Christians, I only quoted 27 because it was right there with 26.But there are always rules and laws for the faithful to follow, and lots of debate on what coults as the real thing.

quote:

---

In Thomas's gospel, then, as in John, Matthew, and Luke, we sometimes find sayings that seem to contradict each other. For example, both John and Thomas include some sayings suggesting that those who come to know God are very fewa chosen few. Such sayings echo traditional teaching about divine election, and teach that God chooses those who are able to know him; while the cluster of sayings I take as the key to interpreting Thomas suggest instead that everyone, in creation, receives an innate capacity to know God.

---

(quote from book, Beyond Belief, by PagelsThere is no agreement on how to follow the founders of the religion.The 100 AD readers of the Gospel of Thomas (much like the Gospel of Matthew) would likely have looked down on those who eat meat and don't follow the Sabbath.The rules determine the interpretation of prophecies.The readers of these commands (in the Gospel of Matthew) would not see today's readers of the Gospel as heeding the warnings.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

I did not appreciate you describing my comments as "blathering." If you want to discuss things with me understand that I expect a little mutual respect. You don't have to agree of course.I also have no heart to refer to non-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas to derive ANY major insight into the revelation of the canonical books.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Faith, I hope to remark something on the Revelation 7 passage sometime today.

quote:

---

I also have no heart to refer to non-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas to derive ANY major insight into the revelation of the canonical books.

---

Now that you mention it, can you please tell me what canon that would be.

quote:

---

The Parables of Jesus
RED LETTER EDITION
A report of the Jesus Seminar
Robert Funk
1988 Polebridge Press

​

p.83
canon

​

a collection or authoritative list of books accepted as holy scripture. The canon was determined for Roman Catholics at the Council of Trent in 1546 C.E. ; it has never been determined for Protestants, except by common consent.

---

Is it the 1546 canon?Or is the it the popular consent Roman Catholic-lite "Protestant canon" ?Is the the "holy" inspiration of the "holy" men in the 2nd to 4th centuries?A Baptist publisher has a timeline, called "New Testament Canonization Process"The publisher is Holman.HOLMAN STUDENT BIBLE DICTIONARY
BY KAREN DOCKREY
JOHNNIE & PHYLLIS GODWIN
(1993 HOLMAN BIBLE PUBLISHERS; NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE)There is a graph on page 15, and I am presenting it horizontally, with a very changed format. I am skipping no words, but don't consider this a precise quote due to the radically changed format to make my quote.

quote:

---

NEW TESTAMENT CANONIZATION PROCESS

​

0-180 A.D. Early Fathers quote Apocryphal books as Scripture: first challenged by Origen

​

200 Muratorian Canon Lacks: Hebrews 3 John

​

250 Origen’s New Testament Lacks: Hebrews James 2 Peter 2 &3 John Jude

​

300 Eusebius New Testament Lacks: Hebrews James 2 Peter 2 &3 John Jude Doubts authorship of Revelation

​

400 New Testament Fixed by the Council of Carthage

---

I assume that you don't consider the Ethiopian and Russian churches to be popular enough in your culture, but is your line - "ANY major insight into the revelation of the canonical books" - tied to anything concrete or is it just a soundbite meant to be passed over?

The fact remains that everything in Revelation is still just more failed prophecy.